Trayvon Martin Case

[DynamiteRave]

Originally Posted by RedskinRat

Then it's the rule that allowed him to shoot someone that's wrong and that should be changed.

Just for clarity, I am not taking into account Zimmerman's judgment, mkay?

I agree with you on that. Or at least it needs to be modified so that there's some clarity on what accounts as "self defense". I mean it shouldn't be to the point of where the person has a knife to your throat to shoot them, but it also shouldn't be like, a bar fight scenario where its just 2 idiots brawling.

Hell, the whole rule should probably be done away with.

[RedskinRat]

Originally Posted by DynamiteRave

Hell, the whole rule should probably be done away with.

I'd like to see how the law has been applied since its inception and see if it has created a 'Wild-West'. It would be tough to prove but like CCW it creates a more well-behaved populace as people aren't so sure who to eff with.

[mlmdub130]

Originally Posted by DynamiteRave

I agree with you on that. Or at least it needs to be modified so that there's some clarity on what accounts as "self defense". I mean it shouldn't be to the point of where the person has a knife to your throat to shoot them, but it also shouldn't be like, a bar fight scenario where its just 2 idiots brawling.

Hell, the whole rule should probably be done away with.

thats the biggest thing that can come away from this case. i feel like me and you are in the same boat in realizing that by the rule of the law zimmerman is probably not guilty, but we would both love to see him serve over a decade in prison. i am all for the right to bear arms and myself own 3 hand guns a rifle and a shotgun, and hate when jackasses like this give reasonable gun owners a bad name. laws like stand your ground make me cringe because of things like this. when i was in military police training we spent a ton of time on the use of force continum.

Use of force continuum

Main article: Use of force continuum

The use of force may be standardized by a use of force continuum, which presents guidelines as to the degree of force appropriate in a given situation. One source identifies five very generalized steps, increasing from least use of force to greatest. It is only one side of the model, as it does not give the levels of subject resistance that merit the corresponding increases in force.[7] Each successive level of force is meant to describe an escalating series of actions an officer may take to resolve a situation, and the level of force used rises only when a lower level of force would be ineffective in dealing with the situation.[4]
1.Presence (using the effect of the presence of an authority figure on a subject)
2.Verbalization (commanding a subject)
3.Empty hand control (using empty hands to search, relieve weapons, immobilize, or otherwise control a subject)
4.Intermediate weapons (using non-lethal chemical, electronic or impact weapons on a subject)
5.Deadly Force (using any force likely to cause permanent injury or death to a subject)

Use of force continuums can be further broken down into much more specific and concrete units.

Use of force - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

[mlmdub130]

Originally Posted by mlmpetert

A dispatcher, who happened to be a police officer, said "We dont need you to do that" in regards to Zimmerman indicating that he was following Martin. Thats a little different than a police officer telling Zimmerman not to pursue.

Zimmerman 911 Call Transcript – Trayvon Martin « Phoebe's Detention Room

I dont think Zimmerman had any idea that the dispatcher was a police officer. Also i think i heard FL law (maybe federal) says you dont have to adhere to anything your told over the phone from a police officer, 911 dispatcher, or anyone else. Its all advice, nothing official. Perhaps thats why the dispatcher said "we dont need you to do that" as opposed a command like "do not do that". Regardless, it seems by all accounts Zimmerman stopped following Martin at the advice of the dispatcher. Unfortunately the media usually ends the recording prematurely and makes it sounds like Zimmerman kept going after Martin.

The trouble i have in siding with Zimmerman is that he got out of his truck and followed Martin in the first place, when there was no reason to believe Martin had yet committed a crime, and more specifically a crime against Zimmerman or his family.

I was a victim of violent crime and one surprising thing i learned is that preceding separate acts cant be used against you. The example is if you see someone driving recklessly, then they leave your sights, and moments later you see that car involved in an accident, your previous account of them driving recklessly cant be used against them. The thought is you have no idea if they stopped speeding or driving recklessly immediately before the accident.

So they law may see what happened as 2 separate acts.

1) Zimmerman got out of his truck to follow Martin. At this point if he had encountered Martin and the result was the same, I fully believe Zimmerman would be guilty of manslaughter at a very minimum and deserves to spend time in jail. But he didn’t encounter Martin at this point and more importantly when told to stop he stopped. And he stopped long enough to give the dispatcher his information so that police could assist him. And according to Zimmerman he retreated to his suv.

Then:

2) Zimmerman was walking to his SUV and was confronted by Martin from behind and after they exchanged words Martin punched Zimmerman in the face breaking his noise and took him the ground and was slamming his head against the sidewalk. In the struggle and while under an reasonable impression that Martin had a gun or weaon he shot Martin in the chest.

So I think what people need to consider is; was Zimmerman acting in self defense specifically in the context of JUST the 2nd scenario. Sure I personally feel, like most of you probably do, that if not for Zimmerman getting out of his suv Martin would be alive, therefore Zimmerman was in the wrong and provoked the actions of Martin. But as wrong as Zimmerman was to get out of his car, he did stop and retreated at which point Zimmerman would be justified more so to defend himself when attacked.

* This is based off of Zimmerman’s accounts which obviously may be false. But it does match up with his injuries and the accounts of some witnesses. Im just going off of reported information. Also this is my understanding of law, which makes it completely worthless….

Something else that I think will be a legal issue is the girlfriend’s account on the phone. It gets into that whole hearsay issue. I learned that you generally (its tricky) cant reveal something someone told you. So if a witness called 911 because her husband told her to because one guy just shot another guy outside, she cant say that. There may be precedent to phone conversation, but the girlfriend may only be limited to describing what she heard but not what was said.

Also the gated community thing might complicated things further. I believe it becomes a little fuzzy about what is/isn’t considered his homestead. That combined with the knowledge he likely picked up as a neighborhood watchman of who does/doesn’t live within the restricted community and their common visitors may give him more rights in approaching a visitor of the neighborhood.

given all that i am just looking at the case from a far

1. you have a 17y/o kid leaving a convienence store and heading somewhere.

2. then you have a 29 y/o man who is a neighborhood watch activist who is armed with a gun start tailing the 17y/o.

3. at some point there is a physical struggle and the end result is the 17y/o being shot in the chest.

anyway you cut it up to me thats murder. the enitre incident was incited by the 29y/o, and an inccocent 17y/o kid is dead. may the kid have been a gang banger maybe. could he just be a young kid trying to be a thug on the internet maybe. i know sure as shit thats what my dumbass 18 y/o cousin does. i don't know what either of their back stories are and don't really care. a 17y/o unarmed kid was shot by a 29y/o armed man. but at the end of the day thats just my opinion and you and i both know how f-ed up the legal system is, even if the defendant is 100% guilty he could get away with. shame is in this case he probaly was within the rule of the law.

[skinsfaninok]

Originally Posted by mlmdub130

given all that i am just looking at the case from a far

1. you have a 17y/o kid leaving a convienence store and heading somewhere.

2. then you have a 29 y/o man who is a neighborhood watch activist who is armed with a gun start tailing the 17y/o.

3. at some point there is a physical struggle and the end result is the 17y/o being shot in the chest.

anyway you cut it up to me thats murder. the enitre incident was incited by the 29y/o, and an inccocent 17y/o kid is dead. may the kid have been a gang banger maybe. could he just be a young kid trying to be a thug on the internet maybe. i know sure as shit thats what my dumbass 18 y/o cousin does. i don't know what either of their back stories are and don't really care. a 17y/o unarmed kid was shot by a 29y/o armed man. but at the end of the day thats just my opinion and you and i both know how f-ed up the legal system is, even if the defendant is 100% guilty he could get away with. shame is in this case he probaly was within the rule of the law.

Yeah I've tried to go on both sides here but I'm starting to agree, it seems like this dude wanted to hurt Martin, maybe not kill him but IMO become the Neighborhood "Hero" and it went to far. He had absolutely no right to follow him, I don't care what he looks like and also if Martin started running away he was obviously scared, maybe he thought it was the cops or maybe he just felt threatened.

[SolidSnake84]

I've taken in everything i can on this case, and can't really handle anymore. The media wants to make it about nothing but race, and they insist on using a 4 year old photo of the victim for the sole purpose of trying to drub up sympathy and invoke strong feelings when otherwise there would be none. I hate that everything takes the race issue.

The evidence is beginning to stack against Martin, thats a fact. No matter how many times they say he was only 17 years old going up against a grown man, nobody seems to care that this 17 year old outweighed Zimmerman and was physically surperior to him. 9 times out of ten Zimmerman would get whooped by him.

Witnesses have seen Martin banging Zimmerman's head on the sidewalk. That's attempted murder there but nobody gives two rats asses because all they can fascinate on is the 4 year old photo of some poor innocent little baby.

There will never be a right or wrong here. I see wrongdoing on both Zimmerman & Martin's part.

[firstdown]

Originally Posted by mlmdub130

given all that i am just looking at the case from a far

1. you have a 17y/o kid leaving a convienence store and heading somewhere.

2. then you have a 29 y/o man who is a neighborhood watch activist who is armed with a gun start tailing the 17y/o.

3. at some point there is a physical struggle and the end result is the 17y/o being shot in the chest.

anyway you cut it up to me thats murder. the enitre incident was incited by the 29y/o, and an inccocent 17y/o kid is dead. may the kid have been a gang banger maybe. could he just be a young kid trying to be a thug on the internet maybe. i know sure as shit thats what my dumbass 18 y/o cousin does. i don't know what either of their back stories are and don't really care. a 17y/o unarmed kid was shot by a 29y/o armed man. but at the end of the day thats just my opinion and you and i both know how f-ed up the legal system is, even if the defendant is 100% guilty he could get away with. shame is in this case he probaly was within the rule of the law.

So now he is an activist?

[skinsfaninok]

Originally Posted by SolidSnake84

I've taken in everything i can on this case, and can't really handle anymore. The media wants to make it about nothing but race, and they insist on using a 4 year old photo of the victim for the sole purpose of trying to drub up sympathy and invoke strong feelings when otherwise there would be none. I hate that everything takes the race issue.

The evidence is beginning to stack against Martin, thats a fact. No matter how many times they say he was only 17 years old going up against a grown man, nobody seems to care that this 17 year old outweighed Zimmerman and was physically surperior to him. 9 times out of ten Zimmerman would get whooped by him.

Witnesses have seen Martin banging Zimmerman's head on the sidewalk. That's attempted murder there but nobody gives two rats asses because all they can fascinate on is the 4 year old photo of some poor innocent little baby.

There will never be a right or wrong here. I see wrongdoing on both Zimmerman & Martin's part.

I don't disagree w you but Zimmerman had no right chasing Martin and especially with a weapon.

[los panda]

johnny stabbed and killed the soc in self defense, ponyboy was nearly drowned. but the socs were the aggressors in that scenario

[JoeRedskin]

Just read something else. In Florida, apparently, the police cannot arrest someone who asserts a self-defense claim unless they can prove the claim is without basis. If they do arrest someone who asserts such a claim and that claim is later upheld in court, the police will be responsible for civil penalties, lost wages and other damages.

In light of that, Zimmerman's assertion that T. Martin attacked him, combined with the lack of evidence showing Zimmerman started the physical altercation and Zimmerman's injuries, the failure to arrest Zimmerman is consistent with the laws in place.

Statutes & Constitution :View Statutes : Online Sunshine

For those saying "Zimmerman should not have followed Martin after the dispatcher said it was unneccessary." Yup. Probably shouldn't have. However, while it may have been bad judgment, it was not illegal. Zimmerman had just as much right to walk (or run on) the public streets of his neighborhood as did Martin. [I live in a neighborhood that has had many break-ins and often observe young men walking down the street blatantly looking in car windows and testing car handles. I will go outside and follow them for a block or two and snap their picture on my phone to make sure they know people are watching. As long as I stay on public property, I am absolutely within my rights to do so].

It's a bad end with no real proof as to whether the use of deadly force was legally or illegally used. A tragedy all around with many lives unalterably ruined. It is not the first time such a thing has happened, and, unfortunately, it will not be the last.

[mooby]

Originally Posted by firstdown

So now he is an activist?

I think you're just nitpicking here.

[JoeRedskin]

^^ Maybe so. At the same time, it's little characterizations such as this that people have been throwing out since the beginning that appeal to feelings as opposed to facts. He's been characterized as a vigilante, a racist, a wannabe-hero. To me, all this is just stuff that gets in the way of analyzing the facts and is based off a lot of conjecture that's more spin than reality.

[mlmpetert]

Originally Posted by los panda

johnny stabbed and killed the soc in self defense, ponyboy was nearly drowned. but the socs were the aggressors in that scenario

I havent seen the movie since 8th grade english class but diddnt johnny boy stright up murder at least one of socs?

[RedskinRat]

Originally Posted by mooby

I think you're just nitpicking here.

Mooby, it's all part of the incendiary and mood-setting language that's being used.

Use Occam's Razor, lex parsimoniae, see how the scenario looks when stripped of all the additional BS.

[Chico23231]

Didnt know this until this morning, Zimmerman has had 2 arrest due to violence. 2005 assulting a police officer and 2007 domestic violence and had a restraining order taken out on him by an x girlfriend. So he has a violent history and a pattern of violence. Is this the type of person you want walking around your neighborhood?

This piece of shit needs to be locked up for a long long time period

Martin, on the other hand, had no criminal history or arrest, but is now being painted as some thug? This ****ing world is losing its mind.