Trayvon Martin Case

[CRedskinsRule]

Originally Posted by RGIII

Not true.

That is powerful legal persuasiveness right there.

[HailGreen28]

Originally Posted by CRedskinsRule

That is powerful legal persuasiveness right there.

LOL, I know, right?

"RGIII" had me totally convinced at the bit about [breaking into someone's home and trying to bust down the bedroom door where that someone's girlfriend and baby daughter are] is the same as [following someone outdoors in a public area, then that someone is on top of you beating you up].

I can hardly wait to hear what "RGIII" thinks "impersonating a police officer" means.

[SmootSmack]

Not cool man. Not cool

[RedskinRat]

One of the more idiotic posts on WP, ever, RGIII, AND I include all of mine in that calculation.

[saden1]

Zimmermqn said that Martin circled his car and despite his "fear" of him he still managed to get out of his car. That is not reasonable and it certainly diminishes his claim of fearing for his life. If the question is if there is a reason to doubt the evidence against him I can find non.

[JoeRedskin]

Even though I recognize you believe it did not happen to that way, explain how the factual scenario I set forth in post 1016 could not be true by using only direct evidence or inferences consistent with those in the post.

[RGIII]

Originally Posted by JoeRedskin

Even though I recognize you believe it did not happen to that way, explain how the factual scenario I set forth in post 1016 could not be true by using only direct evidence or inferences consistent with those in the post.

^flashlight lawyer *sigh*

[saden1]

Originally Posted by JoeRedskin

Even though I recognize you believe it did not happen to that way, explain how the factual scenario I set forth in post 1016 could not be true by using only direct evidence or inferences consistent with those in the post.

We can speculate about different scenarios including the possibility that Zimmerman had his weapon drawn from the get go and the struggled for the gun ensued while he was attempting to pistol-whip Martin. That fact of the case are pretty simple and it's a matter of using your common sense.

• Profiled Martin as one of those "****ing punks. Those assholes, they always get away"
• Pursued Martin
• Violate community protocol
• Get out of car after Martin allegedly circled his car
• Inconstant statements about what happened
• Inconsistent statements about why got out of his car
• He didn't identify himself as neighborhood watchman
• Shoots and kills Martin during a struggle that was avoidable
• Goes on national TV and says "This is all god's plan and I wouldn't do anything differently (blatant disregard for human life).

Anything is possible in this world but we have to rely on the facts of the case and the fact of the case are sufficient enough to convict Zimmerman of manslaughter (at a minimum), The burden of proof has been met by the state and nothing in the defense persuasive enough to arrive at an alternative verdict. It is that simple.

[HailGreen28]

Originally Posted by saden1

We can speculate about different scenarios including the possibility that Zimmerman had his weapon drawn from the get go and the struggled for the gun ensued while he was attempting to pistol-whip Martin. That fact of the case are pretty simple and it's a matter of using your common sense.

Lol. When anything is possible... look up what reasonable doubt is, and which side it favors in this case.

Originally Posted by saden1

• Profiled Martin as one of those "****ing punks. Those assholes, they always get away" Numerous prior incidents mainly by young black males. Not a crime for Zimmerman to profile.
• Pursued Martin Not a crime.
• Violate community protocol I doubt you know what this means, because even if you know technically what it means, there's no crime here either.
• Get out of car after Martin allegedly circled his car Not a crime
• Inconstant statements about what happened Police who were on the scene, and interviewed Zimmerman, and have heard other people repeat stressful accounts repeatedly, have called all of Zimmerman's testimony consistent.
• Inconsistent statements about why got out of his car Again, the detectives interviewing him called Zimmerman's statements consistent.
• He didn't identify himself as neighborhood watchman And you think this is a crime, too? LOL.
• Shoots and kills Martin during a struggle that was avoidable Maybe it was. Do you have any evidence? Saying Zimmerman should have stayed in his truck, his home, etc, could be applied to Martin as well, and would be equally wrong.
• Goes on national TV and says "This is all god's plan and I wouldn't do anything differently (blatant disregard for human life). That's standard belief for many christians, even in tragedy. lol at "blatant disregard for human life". You never heard christians talk about gods plan before, when something bad happens to them, saden?

So basically all you have, saden, is to try demonizing everything Zimmerman did. "He watched a stranger with the same demographic as previous criminals in that area! He got out of his car! He didn't identify himself! (nevermind you don't even know if this is true or not) He said everything was god's plan! Oh the horror! He's a monster! Guilty! Guilty!"

Originally Posted by saden1

Anything is possible in this world but we have to rely on the facts of the case and the fact of the case are sufficient enough to convict Zimmerman of manslaughter (at a minimum), The burden of proof has been met by the state and nothing in the defense persuasive enough to arrive at an alternative verdict. It is that simple.

I know this will fly over your head, saden, because JoeR has explained this numerous times to you. But just for anyone else reading this: This is a traditional self defense case. Defendant has to make a prima facie case that self-defense was possible. (on the face of things, the self defence claim is plausible). If the defense provides evidence that is the case, it's up to the prosecution to prove that it was not a case of self defense. If there is reasonable doubt that the defendant committed a crime, the verdict should be not guilty, as is normal in criminal cases.

The defense in pre-trial, and the prosecution and defense in court, provide plenty of evidence that self defense was a possibility in this case. Not just "anything could happen", but for example the injuries to Zimmerman (and no injuries from fisticuffs to Martin), eyewitness accounts placing Zimmerman under Martin, Zimmerman's statements (and just look at the situation. For example: If Zimmerman wanted to shoot Martin from the get-go, why did he call 911?)

So the burden of proof is on the prosecution here, to prove manslaughter or murder. Watch the prosecution's closing statement. All they did was cast reasonable doubt on Zimmerman's claims. If the burden of proof was on the defense, this would be a slam-dunk case for the prosecution. But the burden of proof is on the prosecution. And the prosecution put forward nothing that they proved beyond a reasonable doubt. Their theories are no more proven that your idea that Zimmerman ran up to Martin and pistol whipped him (after putting on a white hood, I assume), or that Martin threw the first punch on the "creepy ass cracker". Reasonable doubt means the prosecution has to prove their side more than "anything could have happened".

After Casey Anthony, OJ, the first Rodney King trial, who knows what the jury will do. But barring any new info, murder2 is a joke. Manslaughter depends on what you think of Zimmerman (and how high standard you think reasonable doubt is). A civil action (wrongful death?) is a possibility with a lower standard to prove than manslaughter.

But the comments by some people here... are more embarrassing than Martin's friend's testimony was. Seriously, can you imagine if she said in court what RGIII, saden, and gary84 have said here?

[Chico23231]

Originally Posted by HailGreen28

Lol. When anything is possible... look up what reasonable doubt is, and which side it favors in this case.

So basically all you have, saden, is to try demonizing everything Zimmerman did. "He watched a stranger with the same demographic as previous criminals in that area! He got out of his car! He didn't identify himself! (nevermind you don't even know if this is true or not) He said everything was god's plan! Oh the horror! He's a monster! Guilty! Guilty!"



I know this will fly over your head, saden, because JoeR has explained this numerous times to you. But just for anyone else reading this: This is a traditional self defense case. Defendant has to make a prima facie case that self-defense was possible. (on the face of things, the self defence claim is plausible). If the defense provides evidence that is the case, it's up to the prosecution to prove that it was not a case of self defense. If there is reasonable doubt that the defendant committed a crime, the verdict should be not guilty, as is normal in criminal cases.

The defense in pre-trial, and the prosecution and defense in court, provide plenty of evidence that self defense was a possibility in this case. Not just "anything could happen", but for example the injuries to Zimmerman (and no injuries from fisticuffs to Martin), eyewitness accounts placing Zimmerman under Martin, Zimmerman's statements (and just look at the situation. For example: If Zimmerman wanted to shoot Martin from the get-go, why did he call 911?)

So the burden of proof is on the prosecution here, to prove manslaughter or murder. Watch the prosecution's closing statement. All they did was cast reasonable doubt on Zimmerman's claims. If the burden of proof was on the defense, this would be a slam-dunk case for the prosecution. But the burden of proof is on the prosecution. And the prosecution put forward nothing that they proved beyond a reasonable doubt. Their theories are no more proven that your idea that Zimmerman ran up to Martin and pistol whipped him (after putting on a white hood, I assume), or that Martin threw the first punch on the "creepy ass cracker". Reasonable doubt means the prosecution has to prove their side more than "anything could have happened".

After Casey Anthony, OJ, the first Rodney King trial, who knows what the jury will do. But barring any new info, murder2 is a joke. Manslaughter depends on what you think of Zimmerman (and how high standard you think reasonable doubt is). A civil action (wrongful death?) is a possibility with a lower standard to prove than manslaughter.

But the comments by some people here... are more embarrassing than Martin's friend's testimony was. Seriously, can you imagine if she said in court what RGIII, saden, and gary84 have said here?

This is anything but traditional because the actual aggressor and provoker here is the one claiming self defense. Also strange is the fact the one claiming self defense was the ONLY one armed. The actually person provoked never had a weapon of any kind...nothing...bat, gun, knife, etc....just skittles. Also non traditional is the fact the one claiming self defense is a larger and older adult against a smaller, kid.

Rarely you see an older, larger, armed person running up on a smaller, unarmed, child claiming self defense after he has shot and killed the teenager.

[saden1]

Originally Posted by Chico23231

This is anything but traditional because the actual aggressor and provoker here is the one claiming self defense. Also strange is the fact the one claiming self defense was the ONLY one armed. The actually person provoked never had a weapon of any kind...nothing...bat, gun, knife, etc....just skittles. Also non traditional is the fact the one claiming self defense is a larger and older adult against a smaller, kid.

Rarely you see an older, larger, armed person running up on a smaller, unarmed, child claiming self defense after he has shot and killed the teenager.

Zimmerman's story is incredible! I literally have to suspend my common sense to believe anything Zimmerman said. Even more incredible is the incompetence and depraved malice displayed by members of the warpath.

[HailGreen28]

Originally Posted by Chico23231

This is anything but traditional because the actual aggressor and provoker here is the one claiming self defense.

No, if the defendant was the actual aggressor and provoker, it would be a traditional FAILED claim of self defense. I'm saying this is not the new "stand your ground" case where the burden of proof is on the defense, it's the traditional "self defence" where once the possibility of actual self defence is established, the burden is on the prosecution.

Which again raises the point, how do you know in this case which was the actual attacker and aggressor? Those in the court case would like to know what you do, because neither side had evidence to "know" that. (other than what Zimmerman said, but he's the one on trial.)

Originally Posted by Chico23231

Also strange is the fact the one claiming self defense was the ONLY one armed. The actually person provoked never had a weapon of any kind...nothing...bat, gun, knife, etc....just skittles.

So if someone is armed, they can't use the weapon to defend themselves? Muggers attacking anyone weaker than they are, will be overjoyed by this news.

And again someone lists the skittles in their argument. I'm sure numerous criminals and victims have had M&Ms, Tootsie Rolls, and Pepsi on them when a crime has occurred. What is this fetish people have about skittles?

Originally Posted by Chico23231

Also non traditional is the fact the one claiming self defense is a larger and older adult against a smaller, kid.

Define "larger". Martin was taller and probably in much better shape. Unless Martin was obese.

And "kid" again? Does this look like a "kid"? Martin was 17. If he was arrested the day of the incident, for assault or whatever just saying, he would have been charged as an adult.


(teen in the middle)

Teen, yes. Young man, yes. "Kid"? No. Just to put this in perspective, do you think "kids" killed Sean Taylor? Should they not be tried as adults?

Originally Posted by Chico23231

Rarely you see an older, larger, armed person running up on a smaller, unarmed, child claiming self defense after he has shot and killed the teenager.

I'm willing to bet lots of older people have filed self defence claims against younger people even though only the older person was armed, seeing how it's teen males that commit a plurality of violent crimes. Again you're calling the shorter, more out of shape guy the "larger" guy.

And how do you know Zimmerman actually "ran up" to Martin? Please tell CNN, because the prosecution and defense both missed what you found out.

"CHILD"? Did I post pictures of a "child" up there? Again, to keep perspective in this case, did "children" kill Sean Taylor?

[Hog1]

607 and.......counting......down

[JoeRedskin]

I admit it ... I simply do not understand either of the two previous posts.

[JoeRedskin]

My inferences are no more speculative than yours. I cited to and relied on testimony and physical evidence.

Prove, by direct evidence, that any inference I have drawn could not have occurred.