Domestic Terrorists? You Decide!

[dmek25]

Originally Posted by GusFrerotte

Bullshit!!!!! Koresh didn't do anything to warrant what happened. Also I want to know how much these fools were egged on my the agent that infiltrated them. Sorry, but I think the whole damn thing could be a wag the dog type scenario. This is a psyops job for when the Feds really start to lay the hammer down the folks that have the balls to say enough is enough are all going to be branded nut jobs. Not saying these folks are totally innocent, but look at the WTO protests. They had FBI guys actually start violent acts like throwing bottles, etc to get the crowd going, just to discredit them.

this is a joke, right?

[budw38]

Originally Posted by dmek25

i cant believe the amount of people on this board that are actually sticking up for Koresh. maybe he isn't alone in some of his beliefs?

I don't think anybody has supported Koresh or his views . Just do not think the Feds should murder 81 people when the could have arrested /killed Koresh while he was alone , as he went to the bank and store the same time and day/s every two weeks . I doubt anybody misses him . Too many kids died ... no trail ,no conviction .... judge/jury execution .

[GusFrerotte]

Exactly. Koresh shot ATF guys so he was fair game, but the whole compound? THey could have stormed it without burning it. Overkill in my book. THese loons from MI were probably more of a menace to themsleves. Some of them had big mouths and that is what got them into trouble. They didn't have the brains to pull it off.

[GusFrerotte]

Originally Posted by dmek25

this is a joke, right?

Not at all. The FBI even admitted it had infiltrated the WTO protests and had guys get some of the protestors riled up. Some even threw shit, etc. The ploy worked. THe protestors were all deemed thugs and commies, thus discredited. As for Koresh, yeah he open fired on ATF guys so he was fair game, but how does one order boxes of hand grenades via UPS? THat is how the ATF got wind that he had a heavy duty arsenal. Koresh had it coming since he capped a cop, but I do not beleive the official explanation of why the ATF was there in the first place, nor think that frying those folks was warranted.

[Slingin Sammy 33]

Originally Posted by GusFrerotte

How could you not retort with Bush and Iraq. Who do you think got that waste of space into office? The Christian Right of course!!!!! Afghanistan also is on them!! Pretty hard not to attribute these wars to Christian fundamentalism since their whole thing is to get Jesus to come back, but the ME has to go up in a bunch of mushroom clouds first, not to mention two thirds of Israelis need to die also for the rapture scenario to come about. Shoot a lot of American servicemen had/have sights for their rifles inscripted with bible verses on them. Thing is the religion of America is just that America, with a thin wrapper of egalitarian humanistic Christianity, to give it some metaphysical justification. Christianity in America= Americanism, so therefore Christian zealots are far ahead of their Muslim counterparts in the body count!!!!!

And here I thought Iraq & Afghanistan were for oil, or to line Haliburton's pockets, or because Bush was just plain stupid, I had no idea the Christian Right was in on it.

And I suppose the U.S. military's extremely limited Rules of Engagement and the fact the U.S. military takes extreme precaution to protect innocent civilians from harm, often at the expense of U.S. servicemembers lives/safety, is part of making sure 2/3 of the Israelis are wiped out and keeps the U.S. ahead in the body count....of course as long as it's wrapped in egalitarian humanistic Christianity.

Wow, I never knew??????

Before we veer too far out of reality, let's look at the bible verses on the sights.

One of the citations on the gun sights, Second Corinthians 4:6 of the New Testament, which reads: "For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ."

John 8:12, reads, "Whoever follows me will never walk in darkness, but will have the light of life."

Certainly neither of these is anywhere near the tone or level of violence that many passages in the Koran are concerning killing of infidels and waging jihad.

[Chico23231]

Originally Posted by Slingin Sammy 33

Just a couple quick points of clarification. Your statement Islamic fanatic = Christian fanatic isn't accurate.

How many innocent people have been murdered in the last 10 years by "Christian fanatics". How many by Islamic fanatics? By a VERY wide margin there have been far more murders by Islamic fanatics. Just to throw out a quick few: USS Cole, 9/11, Bali nightclub, train attack in Spain, subway bombing in England, school in Russia, etc., etc., etc.

While these nutjobs were "planning" this attack, they never executed the plan. Not to say they wouldn't have, but the fact is they weren't able to follow through.

The timing is a little too convenient, similar to Clinton blowing up the aspirin factory in Sudan during the Lewinsky scandal. Right thing to do, but motivation for moving forward was probably purely political. Right on the heels of the Health Care debate which was unfavorable in public opinion, the Obama Admin is quickly doing everything it can to change the public discourse to somethng favoring them. This case is going to be the poster child for backing up the DHS report stating that "domestic terrorists" are a larger threat than Islamic terrorists. Charging these guys with WMD is simply to satisfy the statute to classify these animals as terrorists.

Should these idiots be prosecuted and thrown away, absolutely. But the Dems, Obama Admin, and White House's media arms (ABC, NBC, CBS, CNN) will be using this as a major political tool.

And please....don't bother with the "what about Bush & Iraq!" retort. It's 2010.

So funny, I never mentioned anything about politics. And the Bush & Iraq comment lol, The Hannity,Rush, & Glen Beck Right is so quick to come to the defense to cover how poor of a job Bush and Chaney actually did.

I was just referring to anyone who commits or intends to commit violence on the basis of religion is an idiot, and to be quite honest, religion is a veil or justification to them...its their personal politics and using their twisted view of religion as a crutch. These people are the minority as well. You believe we are at war with the Muslim religion? Wow. I know a couple muslims and had a friend who lived in Egypt...our developed stereotypes through the media is pretty far off. Middle eastern extremism biggest problems is our relationship with Isreal with their on going conflict with Palestine, our influence we have built in the region which was based on our need for oil in the past, and yes our conflicts we have waged, which you correctly identify as a mistake. Their view of Religion is twisted to serve them, use as justification and brings them together to fight whoever.

Its crazy, but alot of them over their see us as a threat to their culture, they dont want their kids growing up playing with plastic guitars in front of the TV. Thats why separation of church and state works. It cant be twisted. Christianity has been used in the past to commit violence, the last 10 years not so much, throughout history, absolutely.

[Slingin Sammy 33]

Originally Posted by Chico23231

So funny, I never mentioned anything about politics. And the Bush & Iraq comment lol, The Hannity,Rush, & Glen Beck Right is so quick to come to the defense to cover how poor of a job Bush and Chaney actually did.

I made that statement because I know where these discussions always lead, away from the point being discussed to: Buss/Cheney/Iraq/Haliburton/Oil/blah,blah,blah

I was just referring to anyone who commits or intends to commit violence on the basis of religion is an idiot

We agree 100% on this point.

You believe we are at war with the Muslim religion? Wow.

Don't tell me what I believe. I didn't make that statement.

Middle eastern extremism biggest problems is our relationship with Isreal with their on going conflict with Palestine, our influence we have built in the region which was based on our need for oil in the past, and yes our conflicts we have waged, which you correctly identify as a mistake.

I never made that statement in response to your post either. Again, back to the Bush/Iraq thing.

Their view of Religion is twisted to serve them, use as justification and brings them together to fight whoever.

Its crazy, but alot of them over their see us as a threat to their culture, they dont want their kids growing up playing with plastic guitars in front of the TV. Thats why separation of church and state works. It cant be twisted. Christianity has been used in the past to commit violence, the last 10 years not so much, throughout history, absolutely.

So based on your statements above, you do believe there's a sizable population in the Middle East and elsewhere that holds the view that violence against the U.S. and its citizens (infidels/non-believers) is justified under their religious views?

[joethiesmanfan]

Originally Posted by Slingin Sammy 33

I made that statement because I know where these discussions always lead, away from the point being discussed to: Buss/Cheney/Iraq/Haliburton/Oil/blah,blah,blah

We agree 100% on this point.

Don't tell me what I believe. I didn't make that statement.

I never made that statement in response to your post either. Again, back to the Bush/Iraq thing.

So based on your statements above, you do believe there's a sizable population in the Middle East and elsewhere that holds the view that violence against the U.S. and its citizens (infidels/non-believers) is justified under their religious views?

Look, I am from South Carolina. Trust me, the Christian RIGHT are not right and they definitely not Christians. They practice hipocrisy on a daily basis. Sunday is the most segregated day of the week. also Sammy have ever read the Quran? I have, I had to find something that told me it was a sin to hang people from trees and set them on fire just because they are black and own more land than you do. An how can you declare war on America (confederacy first to secede) lose the war then the hang that losing flag on the state house. Why does Jesus reward whites more than he rewards blacks. If god made America sucessful, why did he destroy African Americans and Native Americans.

Conclusion: These people are not Christians. They committ murder on their fellow Christians. Lynchings were held at picnics on church property.
Sacrificing people to their chief of deception Lucifer and true god. They began equating wealth wiht Christianity. If you wasnt o prosper be a christian. ddi this welath fall from heaven. No, it wa sgained through sacrifice and black magic. Dressing in white sheets impersonating ghosts and as a symbol of destroying moral values they incinerate crosses. Look at the satanic symbol in the christian right. their political rule broughht about decpetion and wars. Even Israel lost their first war ever when they tried to reoccupy Lebanon at the urging of the Bush administration and the Neocons. when asking a conservative christina right wing person waht happens ot teh jews when Jesus returns the answer is simple. They either repent or die, yet they portray themselves as friends of Israel. Oh yeah, the Nazi's were christians.

[Slingin Sammy 33]

Originally Posted by joethiesmanfan

Look, I am from South Carolina. Trust me, the Christian RIGHT are not right and they definitely not Christians. They practice hipocrisy on a daily basis. Sunday is the most segregated day of the week. also Sammy have ever read the Quran? I have, I had to find something that told me it was a sin to hang people from trees and set them on fire just because they are black and own more land than you do. An how can you declare war on America (confederacy first to secede) lose the war then the hang that losing flag on the state house. Why does Jesus reward whites more than he rewards blacks. If god made America sucessful, why did he destroy African Americans and Native Americans.

Conclusion: These people are not Christians. They committ murder on their fellow Christians. Lynchings were held at picnics on church property.
Sacrificing people to their chief of deception Lucifer and true god. They began equating wealth wiht Christianity. If you wasnt o prosper be a christian. ddi this welath fall from heaven. No, it wa sgained through sacrifice and black magic. Dressing in white sheets impersonating ghosts and as a symbol of destroying moral values they incinerate crosses. Look at the satanic symbol in the christian right. their political rule broughht about decpetion and wars. Even Israel lost their first war ever when they tried to reoccupy Lebanon at the urging of the Bush administration and the Neocons. when asking a conservative christina right wing person waht happens ot teh jews when Jesus returns the answer is simple. They either repent or die, yet they portray themselves as friends of Israel. Oh yeah, the Nazi's were christians.

Three points:
1) Did you read my post # 52? If so, did you not get that I'm not trying to cover the ocean with this debate. My point in response to Chico was very specific and intended that way.

2) What part of "I was just referring to anyone who commits or intends to commit violence on the basis of religion is an idiot" and my reply being "We agree 100% on this point." did you not understand?

3) I've been around the block and understand history, Christianity, world/current events, and have read multiple books dealing with the contrast between the Bible and the Quran relating to modern day terrorism. I have not read the Quran cover-to-cover, nor have I read the Bible cover-to-cover, not many people have.

I certainly don't need to open the Quran to find a passage to tell me "it was a sin to hang people from trees and set them on fire just because they are black and own more land than you do." There's plenty in the Bible to tell you that. You obviously have some serious issues with Christianity and I'm not going to address your issues, it would take days and wouldn't change your viewpoint.

Historically, no one religion has a monopoly of those who use it's teachings to induce or committ violence. My initial response to Chico was about his statement: Islamic fanatic = Christian fanatic. In the last ten years (recent history) it is fact that there have been far more murders committed worldwide by Muslim extremists than Christian extremists. Narrowing that down to U.S. citizens alone, there is a wide chasm in the numbers that have been killed by Islamic fanatics vs. Christian fanatics. The current Administration has stated that these "domestic terrorists" are a greater threat to the safety and security of U.S. citizens than Islamic extrmemists. Based on the recent death toll, this is not an accurate position. That's the extent of my argument. I have no interest in veering off onto other tangents with this.

[joethiesmanfan]

Originally Posted by Slingin Sammy 33

Three points:
1) Did you read my post # 52? If so, did you not get that I'm not trying to cover the ocean with this debate. My point in response to Chico was very specific and intended that way.

2) What part of "I was just referring to anyone who commits or intends to commit violence on the basis of religion is an idiot" and my reply being "We agree 100% on this point." did you not understand?

3) I've been around the block and understand history, Christianity, world/current events, and have read multiple books dealing with the contrast between the Bible and the Quran relating to modern day terrorism. I have not read the Quran cover-to-cover, nor have I read the Bible cover-to-cover, not many people have.

I certainly don't need to open the Quran to find a passage to tell me "it was a sin to hang people from trees and set them on fire just because they are black and own more land than you do." There's plenty in the Bible to tell you that. You obviously have some serious issues with Christianity and I'm not going to address your issues, it would take days and wouldn't change your viewpoint.

Historically, no one religion has a monopoly of those who use it's teachings to induce or committ violence. My initial response to Chico was about his statement: Islamic fanatic = Christian fanatic. In the last ten years (recent history) it is fact that there have been far more murders committed worldwide by Muslim extremists than Christian extremists. Narrowing that down to U.S. citizens alone, there is a wide chasm in the numbers that have been killed by Islamic fanatics vs. Christian fanatics. The current Administration has stated that these "domestic terrorists" are a greater threat to the safety and security of U.S. citizens than Islamic extrmemists. Based on the recent death toll, this is not an accurate position. That's the extent of my argument. I have no interest in veering off onto other tangents with this.

Acts of violence because of religion are actually quite low. Most of these wars and acts of terrorism are about money. People use religion to recruit solidiers to help them fight. Americans are not gonna shed their blood for some oil company and arabs are not gonna shed their blood to further the profits of their king. Christian extremists may not seem that bad to you, but to me they are the most dangerous because they are not half way around the world and their guns can shoot me.

One more shot for giggles. If the Christian right are correct about reiligion the only people in heaven would be themselves. If it's immoral to tax the rich more then it is definitey immoral to not give back money you know was gained by acts of evil.

[budw38]

Originally Posted by joethiesmanfan

Acts of violence because of religion are actually quite low. Most of these wars and acts of terrorism are about money. People use religion to recruit solidiers to help them fight. Americans are not gonna shed their blood for some oil company and arabs are not gonna shed their blood to further the profits of their king. Christian extremists may not seem that bad to you, but to me they are the most dangerous because they are not half way around the world and their guns can shoot me.

One more shot for giggles. If the Christian right are correct about reiligion the only people in heaven would be themselves. If it's immoral to tax the rich more then it is definitey immoral to not give back money you know was gained by acts of evil.

So " radical Christians " are " here " , and not " half way around the world " , but you choose to make your home /life next door to gun toting scary christians .... you are a brave man . I would move half way around the world < to a peaceful Islamic state > if I lived next to crazy nutjobs who wanted to shoot me , but thats just me .

[Trample the Elderly]

Originally Posted by dmek25

i cant believe the amount of people on this board that are actually sticking up for Koresh. maybe he isn't alone in some of his beliefs?

You'll make a great Helot.

[joethiesmanfan]

Originally Posted by budw38

So " radical Christians " are " here " , and not " half way around the world " , but you choose to make your home /life next door to gun toting scary christians .... you are a brave man . I would move half way around the world < to a peaceful Islamic state > if I lived next to crazy nutjobs who wanted to shoot me , but thats just me .

Well to you sir my advice and to other fellow Americans is not be afraid of extremists. The way you defeat extemism has been proven time and again. Federal troops and the National Guard. It worked for Dr. Martin Luther King and it workled for Lincoln. Time to put the South to bed. THIS IS THE UNITED STATES of AMERICA death to the CONFEDERATE STATES of AMERICA!!!

[budw38]

Originally Posted by joethiesmanfan

Well to you sir my advice and to other fellow Americans is not be afraid of extremists. The way you defeat extemism has been proven time and again. Federal troops and the National Guard. It worked for Dr. Martin Luther King and it workled for Lincoln. Time to put the South to bed. THIS IS THE UNITED STATES of AMERICA death to the CONFEDERATE STATES of AMERICA!!!

I think you know my post was sarcastic , just responded to your comment about extreme / christian / and guns . I have very little fear of extremists , as most are insane to a degree , besides we have more than enough nukes to end most / all threats .

[CRedskinsRule]

Originally Posted by joethiesmanfan

Well to you sir my advice and to other fellow Americans is not be afraid of extremists. The way you defeat extemism has been proven time and again. Federal troops and the National Guard. It worked for Dr. Martin Luther King and it workled for Lincoln. Time to put the South to bed. THIS IS THE UNITED STATES of AMERICA death to the CONFEDERATE STATES of AMERICA!!!

So I take it you aren't waiting expectantly for the South to rise again?