North Carolina passes same-sex marriage ban

[Beemnseven]

Originally Posted by firstdown

You say less rights but they can marry a person of the opposit sex like us, so they do have the same rights. People could say you want to grant them additional rights. So while we are at it I want to have the right to marry 3 women.

And you should be able to. As long as everybody is a voluntary, willing, adult participant, there should be no restrictions.

Why there are so many people who think that adults engaging in consentual acts with other adults need the approval or permission of other adults in a country that calls itself "free" is baffling.

[firstdown]

Originally Posted by SmootSmack

They don't have the same rights. I was able to marry the woman I love. My neighbor down the street can't marry the man he loves

But like you he can marry a woman. You know I'm just playing Devil's Advocate. I love three women is that also ok?

[NC_Skins]

[TheMalcolmConnection]

Originally Posted by SmootSmack

They don't have the same rights. I was able to marry the woman I love. My neighbor down the street can't marry the man he loves

Amen. firstdown, really? I mean step aside from religion for just a hot second. What's the big deal? I'd love to hear a non-religion based argument.

[saden1]

Originally Posted by firstdown

But like you he can marry a woman. You know I'm just playing Devil's Advocate. I love three women is that also ok?

The question should be rephrased as "I love three women, why isn't OK to marry them all?"

...the second and the third question then become "can firstdown handle three women" and "are there three women on the planet with low enough self-esteem to want to marry firstdown?"

[skinsguy]

I think there is plenty enough ignorance to go around on both sides of the argument...I've already been witness to that in this thread by all the childish name calling.

Look, here's the thing, it comes down to simply this: state sponsored benefits. The state recognizing heterosexual marriage was mainly intended to encourage those married couples to procreate and populate. More population = more taxable income from future generations, at least in the government's eyes. The government can care less, or should care less, about the sanctity of marriage or who loves whom, so forth and so on. That isn't really the purpose of this.

My point is, the government is going about this the wrong way. You people who are still arguing hot and heavy in favor of gay marriage are still supporting discrimination, because you have flat out ignored those loving couples who have children together but are not married nor believe in marriage, yet have a loving home together. Should they be left out in the dark as well? Might I add that not all of the states in the union recognize a couple living together for so many years as being legally married. At least that isn't the case in NC. But, my point is, I have not heard any of the high and mighty here be a voice for any of those people either!

The thing is, the arugment has gone into a polarizing way where you're a homophobe if you don't agree with homosexuality, or your ignorant or whatever. You're just as ignorant for trying to down people's beliefs and belittling them in hopes of changing their views. That's a third grade way of going about doing things. It's just as intolerant. There would be absolutely no argument from either side if the government stayed out the marriage business like it should. If it was so gun-ho on giving benefits to couples who could procreate or wanting to adopt, then it should have just left it at that - benefits to those who are living together and have children together either through natural means or adoption. That way, nobody is left out. But, people will continue to argue and fight the wrong fight, and as long as it's about trying to convince somebody that their views are right or wrong, this country will never get passed this issue.

[saden1]

The gays will eventually win, it's just a matter of time. All these GOP/Conservative efforts will eventually die and we will look back and say "WTF were those morons thinking?"

In time victory shall belong to the gays, resistance is merely a temporary gimmick.

[NC_Skins]

Originally Posted by skinsguy

The thing is, the arugment has gone into a polarizing way where you're a homophobe if you don't agree with homosexuality, or your ignorant or whatever. You're just as ignorant for trying to down people's beliefs and belittling them in hopes of changing their views. That's a third grade way of going about doing things. It's just as intolerant.

Not sure you are referring to me because I've used the term ignorant on a few occasions in here, but it wasn't for their views on homosexuality. It was for their inability to see that all people should have rights as human beings, and that these marriages affect them in absolutely no way whatsoever. So what do you call a guy who's mad at somebody for doing something that doesn't affect him whatsoever?

I could care less if people want to view homosexuality as a sin or what not. That's their choosing just as other religions choose to believe what they want.

However, when your religion interferes with others rights, it then becomes a problem.

[saden1]

Originally Posted by skinsguy

I think there is plenty enough ignorance to go around on both sides of the argument...I've already been witness to that in this thread by all the childish name calling.

Look, here's the thing, it comes down to simply this: state sponsored benefits. The state recognizing heterosexual marriage was mainly intended to encourage those married couples to procreate and populate. More population = more taxable income from future generations, at least in the government's eyes. The government can care less, or should care less, about the sanctity of marriage or who loves whom, so forth and so on. That isn't really the purpose of this.

My point is, the government is going about this the wrong way. You people who are still arguing hot and heavy in favor of gay marriage are still supporting discrimination, because you have flat out ignored those loving couples who have children together but are not married nor believe in marriage, yet have a loving home together. Should they be left out in the dark as well? Might I add that not all of the states in the union recognize a couple living together for so many years as being legally married. At least that isn't the case in NC. But, my point is, I have not heard any of the high and mighty here be a voice for any of those people either!

The thing is, the arugment has gone into a polarizing way where you're a homophobe if you don't agree with homosexuality, or your ignorant or whatever. You're just as ignorant for trying to down people's beliefs and belittling them in hopes of changing their views. That's a third grade way of going about doing things. It's just as intolerant. There would be absolutely no argument from either side if the government stayed out the marriage business like it should. If it was so gun-ho on giving benefits to couples who could procreate or wanting to adopt, then it should have just left it at that - benefits to those who are living together and have children together either through natural means or adoption. That way, nobody is left out. But, people will continue to argue and fight the wrong fight, and as long as it's about trying to convince somebody that their views are right or wrong, this country will never get passed this issue.

I am not sure how much thought you've put into the above paragraph but two things stick out to me immediately:

a) unmarried/single people pay more in taxes
b) less population less expenditure

With the way things are right now in this country you want more unmarried/single people pay more taxes and population growth to dwindle or even go into the negative.

If the government truly wants to have more money in it's coffers it should discourage marriage.

[firstdown]

Originally Posted by TheMalcolmConnection

Amen. firstdown, really? I mean step aside from religion for just a hot second. What's the big deal? I'd love to hear a non-religion based argument.

If you read my prior post I said I had no problem with gay marriage.

[TheMalcolmConnection]

Originally Posted by NC_Skins

Not sure you are referring to me because I've used the term ignorant on a few occasions in here, but it wasn't for their views on homosexuality. It was for their inability to see that all people should have rights as human beings, and that these marriages affect them in absolutely no way whatsoever. So what do you call a guy who's mad at somebody for doing something that doesn't affect him whatsoever?

I could care less if people want to view homosexuality as a sin or what not. That's their choosing just as other religions choose to believe what they want.

However, when your religion interferes with others rights, it then becomes a problem.

That being said, skinsguy really does break it down to a pretty decent bottom-line. I think the problem is that it comes from a place of hate/intolerance from (most) people who oppose gay marriage. There are many, many intangible things in this whole argument, but the tangible one is also a VERY important one that skinsguy elaborated on.

[mlmpetert]

Originally Posted by skinsguy

My point is, the government is going about this the wrong way. You people who are still arguing hot and heavy in favor of gay marriage are still supporting discrimination, because you have flat out ignored those loving couples who have children together but are not married nor believe in marriage, yet have a loving home together. Should they be left out in the dark as well? Might I add that not all of the states in the union recognize a couple living together for so many years as being legally married. At least that isn't the case in NC. But, my point is, I have not heard any of the high and mighty here be a voice for any of those people either!

The thing is, the arugment has gone into a polarizing way where you're a homophobe if you don't agree with homosexuality, or your ignorant or whatever. You're just as ignorant for trying to down people's beliefs and belittling them in hopes of changing their views. That's a third grade way of going about doing things. It's just as intolerant. There would be absolutely no argument from either side if the government stayed out the marriage business like it should. If it was so gun-ho on giving benefits to couples who could procreate or wanting to adopt, then it should have just left it at that - benefits to those who are living together and have children together either through natural means or adoption. That way, nobody is left out. But, people will continue to argue and fight the wrong fight, and as long as it's about trying to convince somebody that their views are right or wrong, this country will never get passed this issue.

Very well said. I took out the first part though because its not really state sponsored benefits, at least in my research and opinion.

I tried a while back to see why government, and in particular the federal government, became involved in marriage in the first place. As best as I can tell it deals with basic record keeping by individual states followed by federal law for property/ownership rights relating to women (back when women didn’t have many rights) and for federal taxation of income and property. And finally for welfare entitlements starting in the 30’s.

Im nearly certain initial “dependency” type elections (your spouse is on your employer’s healthcare plan) all initially originated by goodwill from private corporations, much like how some corporations are starting to offer dependency rights for gay couples now-a-days. However, at some point initial goodwill morphed into public policy and became enforceable via federal law.

So now you have certain “rights” but more appropriately these things should be called certain laws/restrictions and penalties governing traditional marriage.

So to me the issue isn’t that gay people cant get married to the person they love, its that in order to be subjected to certain rights/laws/restrictions/penalties we have to get married. But on top of that marriage is defined in a way to specifically exclude certain people/groups.

Ive mentioned here before that I think gays being denied the ability to have marriage laws imposed on their relationships is the biggest civil rights issue of our day. However, I think im changing my opinion. We should all have the right to elect “Traditional Marriage” laws be imposed on any type of relationship we are involved in with another competent adult(s). We should also be free to not elect those “rights”

Skinsguy you are so right in the unfairness couples face who choose not to wed which deny them from certain rules imposed on their relationship. Everyone should be able to elect the same set of rules for their relationship. It should be without restriction but otherwise left as it is now; as a purely contractual legal matter.

The only issue with all this is that the certain rights/laws/restrictions/penalties all need to be modified. They were created for a specific set of principals and if those principles change you need to change these certain rights/laws/restrictions/penalties.

[mlmpetert]

Originally Posted by saden1

I am not sure how much thought you've put into the above paragraph but two things stick out to me immediately:

a) unmarried/single people pay more in taxes
b) less population less expenditure

With the way things are right now in this country you want more unmarried/single people pay more taxes and population growth to dwindle or even go into the negative.

If the government truly wants to have more money in it's coffers it should discourage marriage.

I dont think either of you guys are right. But i guess i think youre more wrong:

a) If youre subject to entitlements dont get married.

That is unless your spouse to be makes a lot of money relative to your income. Getting married in this situtation can cut your rate down significantly. Perhaps progressively in "half", but "progressively in half" isnt real in half

b) less population also means less revenue

A and B are arguable but i completely disagree with your last sentence.


Entitlement reform needs to change because it discourages marriage. 47% of us pay no income tax. 20 some percent pay a negative income tax (get money for showing up). 10-20% pay a negative income so high they effectively pay no payroll tax. If all these people were married they would loose out on a lot of loot.


Social security benefits straight up hook married people up. You never worked a day in your life, but your husband made tons and is subject to the full benefit amount? Cool, you get half of his straight up.

[mlmpetert]

Originally Posted by NC_Skins

Not sure why really. Could be the age groups in those areas, it could be that more locals go to the other schools as compared to locals go to ECU. As for why my ignorant gay hating community voted yes? Well, it's because they are a ignorant gay hating community. Nothing else to say on that.

Guess I paid more attention in classes than some people.

A degree doesn't mean you aren't ignorant. You can be ignorant and still have a degree.

So people that dont believe in same sex marriage just need to take some classes at ECU and pay attention? Out of curiosity what was your major?

[mlmpetert]

Originally Posted by mooby

? I can't tell if you're being sarcastic or if you actually disagree with my statement. It should be obvious by now I disagree with all the bible-thumpers wanting to protect the sanctity of marriage and its' 55% divorce rate.

I just thought your statement was funny, my bad wasnt trying to be a dick or anything.

I think most of us are the same way though. People are morons or whatever if they impose rules on us and those we agree with. But we all like it when they impose rules on those or for those we disagree with.

Maybe we just need less rules.