Baltimore riots

[JoeRedskin]

Nice break down OTM. I think you are pretty much spot on. I will tell you, from what have heard from people who know these things, Mosby is wayyyy out of her depth. She also got rid of a lot (a lot!) of experienced prosecutors when she took office.

As for official immunity, I honestly don't know how it works in the criminal system. I would assume, if they are provided certain immunity from civil negligence, the officers could not be found guilty of any crime in which "negligence" is a fundamental element of the crime. (i.e., a finding of negligence requires finding a breach of a duty, but, under civil immunity, you are barred from asserting such a breach if official immunity is applicable. Thus, since they can never be civilly liable for negligence, I don't see how they can be criminally liable for negligence - but that is pure speculation on my part. I have been wondering what about that very issue since the charges were announced.)

[JoeRedskin]

A little background on Mosby, the State's Attorney:

More on politics at the state’s attorney’s office | Maryland Daily Record

Goodbye and Thank You: My Open Goodbye Letter to the State's Attorney's Office

Also, the attorney representing the Gray family in their civil suit against the City was a member of Mosby's transition team and her husband is the City Counselman who represents Mr. Gray's district where the arrest took place.

If the some of those factors were reversed, i.e. the State's Attorney was married to the President of the FOP and hand insurance defense attorneys on her transition team, I suggest that those celebrating the "Justice for Freddie Gray" indictments would have simply assumed the system was rigged.

The double standard's and the refusal of some of these people to see their own hypocrisy is both mind boggling and deeply frustrating. Many chanting for "Justice" merely seek mob vengeance. These same people, if a "not guilty" verdict is returned will assert that meant no wrong was done. Again, the demand will be for "guilt by reasonable assumption" rather than "guilt beyond a reasonable doubt."

[JoeRedskin]

The thing I have not seen at any point is probable cause given for the actual arrest.

What I have seen is reasonable suspicion to "stop and frisk." Based on the charging document, he surrendered to police. At which point, they had the right to ask for ID, frisk, etc. HOWEVER, once that's done, unless there is an open warrant or something else, there is no probable cause to place him under arrest as I have not heard of any crime committed. Maybe he attacked the officers during the stop and frisk - if so, and St. Attorney Office fails to include those facts, it will ultimately bite them in the ass.

[JoeRedskin]

Reading through the charging docs, the arresting officers and their immediate supervisor (all white) were charged with illegal arrest/false imprisonment, misconduct, and 2nd degree assault.

The supervising officer and two other officers (both African American) who observed Gray en route (due to stops along the way) were charged with involuntary manslaughter. Presumably b/c they failed to restrain Gray on several occasions and ignored any requests for a medic.

The driver (African American) was the one charged with murder 2 - depraved heart. I am assuming b/c he checked on Gray multiple times and did not call for a medic or properly restrain Gray.

[over the mountain]

I had a case against Mosby when she was defending car accidents for Safeco. She never returned a phone call and did below the bare minimum. A few years later she is the State's Attorney for Baltimore City? Whhhhhaaaatttttt???

That open letter is jaw dropping.

It is very hard for cities like Baltimore to recruit police officers. Now, who would want to join if Marilyn Mosby will charge you faster than a criminal?

It is impossible for jurisdictions to keep their top prosecutors. PG county cant keep their experienced prosecutors on the payroll bc private firms can offer 2-3x as much. Now she comes in and fires people? people who know how to prosecute a case and defense attys respect?

bet $1,000 right now she will never be 1st chair for a serious case. Why? she is unqualified but the democrat voters voted her in the gubernational elections and no republican or other party ran against her so when balt city went to vote, it was her or a blank line for a write in.

The ripple effect on this could be unimaginable. this could set baltimore back in ways people dont imagine bc its more behind the curtain.

I moving to columbia in a month.

Joe - i was shocked when I read the charging document stating that Gray surrendered after a brief foot chase. that implies no force so certainly no excessive force.

the charging document and Mosby's own words repeatedly stress that he was unlawfully detained with no PC as grounds to state any touching was illegal and therefore any consequence thereafter was illegal.

thats a slippery slope. under that language and thinking, any person who was arrested and the charges were later dismissed for lack of PC has a slam dunk 1983 civil rights claim. what happens if a person is mistakenly arrested and then they are killed by another prisoner? or catch hep c? or have a heart attack? do we now charge the arresting officers with murder 2? we all know jail is for criminals and criminals kill .. so is it depraved heart to put someone in jail and then they are subsequently attacked or killed? we all know being arrested can cause panic and stress, so if someone has a heart attack as a result, should we charge the arresting officer with murder 2?

** everything said above is my own personal opinion and not presented as fact.

I imagine every have decent crim defense atty will pray up a jury trial and assert speedy trial rights. no way the BC state's attorney's office can do anything right now but plea em out.

[JoeRedskin]

She can't plea'em out. (1) Cops will simply not go for it; and (2) her constituents want a trial and conviction. Trust me, you are not the first individual to say she is completely unqualified for the position.

In the primary, the alternative was Greg Bernstein. He was well respected by the defense bar and had an office of well qualified prosecutors. My understanding is that, after a year in office, it was defense atty's were telling their clients "These guys don't play. You will get big numbers." All that's gone.

[JoeRedskin]

Originally Posted by over the mountain

[T]he charging document and Mosby's own words repeatedly stress that he was unlawfully detained with no PC as grounds to state any touching was illegal and therefore any consequence thereafter was illegal.

Well, they had reasonable suspicion to do a Terry stop/"stop and frisk". There is a Supreme Court case which states that an individual's presence in an area known for heavy narcotics trafficking, combined with his unprovoked flight after seeing and being seen by an officer, justified a stop and search.

So, during the pursuit, if an officer shouts "Halt" and person keeps running, has the person now violated a lawful order of the police providing the necessary probable cause for an arrest? I don't know the answer. If it does, it sets the probable cause bar pretty low.

Good synopsis of the case: Person's Flight Can Justify Police Stop and Search, Supreme Court Rules

The incident that led to the decision today occurred at mid-day on a Chicago street in 1995. As four police cars on narcotics patrol approached the sidewalk where he was standing, Sam Wardlow turned and ran down an alley. An officer caught him and, in a pat-down search, felt a gun in a bag he was carrying under his arm. Justice Stevens said the police officer's testimony about what actually happened was too vague to support a finding of reasonable suspicion. The decision was an application of the court's 1968 decision in Terry v. Ohio, which for the first time authorized a warrantless, brief detention and search of a person acting suspiciously but under circumstances less conclusive than probable cause to believe that a crime had been committed.

[JoeRedskin]

As for your comments about police officers in Baltimore, I whole heartedly agree. I would suggest that law enforcement in Baltimore is going to be in a bad way in about two years.

[HailGreen28]

Wave of Baltimore shootings, killings continues

LINK

"The increase in violence that has followed the death of Freddie Gray continued through the weekend, with four homicides reported since Saturday, according to Baltimore police.

Ten people were reported shot on Sunday alone, including three who were shot to death within a span of 39 minutes. The violence comes as the city prepares for the Preakness on Saturday at Pimlico Race Course."

[NC_Skins]

Originally Posted by HailGreen28

Wave of Baltimore shootings, killings continues

LINK

"The increase in violence that has followed the death of Freddie Gray continued through the weekend, with four homicides reported since Saturday, according to Baltimore police.

Ten people were reported shot on Sunday alone, including three who were shot to death within a span of 39 minutes. The violence comes as the city prepares for the Preakness on Saturday at Pimlico Race Course."

Baltimore has been a violent city for some time, and I don't think anybody thinks otherwise. That violence will continue to stay until the socioeconomic situation changes and drugs are made legal. Where there is poverty, there will be crime.


The problem here is when the cops present a clear and present danger to the citizens. Police should be held to a higher standard then the average citizen.

[JoeRedskin]

Originally Posted by NC_Skins

Baltimore has been a violent city for some time, and I don't think anybody thinks otherwise. That violence will continue to stay until the socioeconomic situation changes and drugs are made legal. Where there is poverty, there will be crime.

The problem here is when the cops present a clear and present danger to the citizens. Police should be held to a higher standard then the average citizen.

It's not that simple. Sure, poverty = crime, and, yes, violence has been here for a while, but, it is surging above its norms. In my neighborhood, this is the time of year that we normally have kids out causing all sorts of minor vandalism and harassment. Right now, however, they have really been emboldened - throwing rocks at parents, kids, property with impunity. The police response is slow and, once on the scene, "Well, if you have a photo or can positively identify them while we are on the scene, we will see what we can do." They simply aren't going to arrest kids unless the crime happens right in front of them. The good cops feel undermined and, right now, things are going to get worse for law-abiding citizens rather than better.

Baltimore Gun Violence Surges As Officers Say They Feel Intense Scrutiny In Wake Of Freddie Gray Death

Bottom line, not all cops, however, "present a clear and present danger to the citizens." In fact, the vast majority are simply doing a hard job in a violent city. The current perspective, however, lumps good and bad cops together, and the very thing they are accused of (essentially, racial profiling) is the very thing others now do to them i.e. "Because they are (black/a cop), it is more likely than not that they are (a criminal/dangerous)." The hypocrisy is bad enough, the blindness to it is even more frustrating.

As I said, it's just not that simple. Policing is a necessary job. It needs to be done right and, to do so, each cop needs to be judged on their individual actions - not painted with a broad brush.

I hope that changes are made, but I am not holding out much hope for the near future. Too many systemic problems, and an absolute denial of responsibility by the African-American, liberal, Democrats of any role in the creation and prolonging of those systemic problems.

The Baltimore Democrats built - The Washington Post

The same people will be re-elected (in a recent election, a poverty-ridden counsel district elected the son their long time counsel woman despite his criminal conviction and their unchanging economic situation)(the district in question borders/abuts the neighborhood where the riots began).

Pete Welch Baltimore | Welch sworn in to replace his mother on City Council - tribunedigital-baltimoresun

The political machines will be oiled and the proles will remain mindless sheeple who buy into demagoguery of corrupt politicians. The bad neighborhoods will get worse, the ones on the edge will sink into the slop and everyone with any property interests whatsoever will move to the rich white enclaves or leave altogether.

[HailGreen28]

Originally Posted by NC_Skins

Baltimore has been a violent city for some time, and I don't think anybody thinks otherwise. That violence will continue to stay until the socioeconomic situation changes and drugs are made legal. Where there is poverty, there will be crime.


The problem here is when the cops present a clear and present danger to the citizens. Police should be held to a higher standard then the average citizen.

The article cites a noticeable increase in shootings, (fatal up by 30%, nonfatal by 50%, this year) and it's not the police shooting or getting shot at, that the article is talking about.

[HailGreen28]

Hogan signs body camera bill, among 350 others

LINK

"Gov. Larry Hogan signed a body camera bill Tuesday that supporters say would pave the way for equipping cops across the state with video equipment.

The law, which takes effect immediately, creates a commission charged with creating statewide guidelines on how police departments should use body cameras and recommending ways to pay for the programs by the end of this year."

[NC_Skins]

Originally Posted by JoeRedskin

As I said, it's just not that simple. Policing is a necessary job. It needs to be done right and, to do so, each cop needs to be judged on their individual actions - not painted with a broad brush.

Not sure the cops are being painted with a broad brush. It's the system that people don't trust, and inherently the cops. When the system protects bad cops, people lose faith in the system and the people under that umbrella. You are correct on the the other points.

Originally Posted by JoeRedskin

Too many systemic problems, and an absolute denial of responsibility by the African-American, liberal, Democrats of any role in the creation and prolonging of those systemic problems.

The same people will be re-elected (in a recent election, a poverty-ridden counsel district elected the son their long time counsel woman despite his criminal conviction and their unchanging economic situation)(the district in question borders/abuts the neighborhood where the riots began).

Considering most of the Baltimore political entity is black, it's definitely not a racial issue. To me, it's more of a socioeconomic issue. The politicians will continue to pander to their voting base to continue to get elected, when in reality they don't give two shits about the people. Greed and corruption sees no color after all.

Getting out of poverty and changing a dreadful inner city is easier in theory than actually implementing. Most of these people are uneducated and been brought up in a element of crime/poverty, and they adapt to their surroundings. Their children will be raise the same way. It does start with people in the community and the parents, but more often than not, it's a cycle that's extremely hard to break.

Originally Posted by JoeRedskin

The bad neighborhoods will get worse, the ones on the edge will sink into the slop and everyone with any property interests whatsoever will move to the rich white enclaves or leave altogether.

This sounds like the plot of Robocop. When can we expect OCP to come buy up all the inner city realty and rebuild it into Delta City?

[JoeRedskin]

Wait ... who could have foreseen this?!?

Violent crime up, arrests down in Baltimore | Maryland News - WBAL Home