What would it take?

[CRedskinsRule]

Originally Posted by mooby

Fair enough. As far as the leak goes, it's safe to say we might never know the intentions of the leaker. But this article I read from an admittedly biased source basically says how you feel about it depends on what side of the aisle you sit on. The party in power (this is true even for Obama) will always say that the issue at hand is somebody leaked classified material, in this case somebody who had access to wiretaps on the Russian ambassador's phone.

The people that side with the party that isn't in power are typically more occupied with what the leak is about, which is why the left will be calling for Flynn's head and wondering how extensive the Russian ties to our gov't are, and the right will be trying to crucify the leaker responsible, whomever that might be. I agree with the article/op-ed though, if you have to commit a felony to expose the truth it's a necessary price to pay. The gov't is supposed to represent the people and have our best interests at heart. When somebody at the highest levels of gov't is willing to lie to the people he's entrusted to protect, there needs to be repercussions.

So does that hold true across political lines for you? Because I am certain it was proved both in the bush administration and a certain secretary of state that top officials lied about WMDs and attacks on US Embassies.

In the Flynn case the saw is the cover-up is worse than the action and that's great for media intent on not allowing Trumps presidency to succeed. There is nothing I have seen that said there was any topics spoken of that harmed US interests. At the worst, that I can tell, is a discussion of sanctions that were being imposed at the time. Is it much different then a sitting president telling a top Russian advisor off mike that he will have more leeway after the upcoming election?

I dunno. For me its about an establishment that is clawing and scraping and pulling evil(imo) machinations to keep its power in play when a new administration Is coming in to town and purposefully turning over the apple cart.

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[CRedskinsRule]

Originally Posted by mooby

Russia Deploys Missile, Violating Treaty and Challenging Trump



I guess since Trump and Putin are bros it's all good.

Did you read the part where the deployment took place in December?

Interesting that it is published the day that a besieged NSA director rresigns.

Look. Trump wants to get Islam, doesn't like China, and his wife is Slovenian so has at least some ties to eastern bloc (cold war language) countries. Is it really that shocking he will be most likely to sync up with Russia. In the geopolitical realm if we want to make both China and Iran think twice about their dealings with us - having some level of cooperation with Russia would be helpful. Hillary wanted a reset at one point Bush made nice with them. This isn't some great capitulation.

Finally remember when TU bombers were flying along our coasts (in international airspace like the trawler was)

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[CRedskinsRule]

And now for.something completely different --

Before video games no one ever said "Oh Crap. I died"

When you drop your phone upside down it turns into a Schroedinger phone

The internet is pretty much like ancient Egypt. People write on walls and worship cats.


Thanks to @justshowerthoughts for that intermission

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[mooby]

Originally Posted by CRedskinsRule

So does that hold true across political lines for you? Because I am certain it was proved both in the bush administration and a certain secretary of state that top officials lied about WMDs and attacks on US Embassies.

In the Flynn case the saw is the cover-up is worse than the action and that's great for media intent on not allowing Trumps presidency to succeed. There is nothing I have seen that said there was any topics spoken of that harmed US interests. At the worst, that I can tell, is a discussion of sanctions that were being imposed at the time. Is it much different then a sitting president telling a top Russian advisor off mike that he will have more leeway after the upcoming election?

I dunno. For me its about an establishment that is clawing and scraping and pulling evil(imo) machinations to keep its power in play when a new administration Is coming in to town and purposefully turning over the apple cart.

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I forgot to link to the article I read:
https://theintercept.com/2017/02/14/...fied-felonies/

For me it absolutely crosses party lines. Just like Obama did with Chelsea Manning and Snowden, I fully disagree with. He basically attacked whistleblowers, which is contrary to the message they were putting out at the time. If the gov't is doing shady shit, they need to be called out for it. Letting it go unchecked just lets them know they can keep pushing the line all they want, which is unacceptable.

As for Flynn, it's not so much what they were talking about as it is the fact that he lied to Pence and/or the rest of the administration. Pence goes out and puts out a message based on the information he received from his trusted advisers. When your adviser is lying to you you end up looking like a fool. They had no choice but to dump him.

[mooby]

Originally Posted by CRedskinsRule

Did you read the part where the deployment took place in December?

Interesting that it is published the day that a besieged NSA director rresigns.

Look. Trump wants to get Islam, doesn't like China, and his wife is Slovenian so has at least some ties to eastern bloc (cold war language) countries. Is it really that shocking he will be most likely to sync up with Russia. In the geopolitical realm if we want to make both China and Iran think twice about their dealings with us - having some level of cooperation with Russia would be helpful. Hillary wanted a reset at one point Bush made nice with them. This isn't some great capitulation.

Finally remember when TU bombers were flying along our coasts (in international airspace like the trawler was)

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I just looked through the whole article and can't find where it says the actual deployment took place in December? I see the part where it said it started testing in 2008, but nothing relevant besides that.

[CRedskinsRule]

From the article:

Administration officials said the Russians now have two battalions of the prohibited cruise missile. One is still located at Russia’s missile test site at Kapustin Yar in southern Russia near Volgograd. The other was shifted in December from that test site to an operational base elsewhere in the country, according to a senior official who did not provide further details and requested anonymity to discuss recent intelligence reports about the missile.

[Chico23231]

So so funny that Russia is now some sort of issue when for most of the Obama presidency, Putin outmaneuvered US interest and Obama personally all over the globe.

Where was the outrage over Crimea, Ukraine, hacking and leaking across the globe, giving Snowden sanctuary, major arms deals with Iran, military action in Syria against US back troops which turned the tide where Assad is winning that war, etc.

???? You were ok with that???

[Giantone]

Originally Posted by Chico23231

So so funny that Russia is now some sort of issue when for most of the Obama presidency, Putin outmaneuvered US interest and Obama personally all over the globe.

Where was the outrage over Crimea, Ukraine, hacking and leaking across the globe, giving Snowden sanctuary, major arms deals with Iran, military action in Syria against US back troops which turned the tide where Assad is winning that war, etc.

???? You were ok with that???

Pretty sure there was "outrage" about everything you mentioned.I know I was how should I say it..".disagreed with "to be nice when all the Snowden crap was going on and certain poster's were happy it happen.Seems certain poster's are never happy.Obama was at fault for getting us into or keeping us in War and now he gets shit becuase he didn't stand up to Putin (with military force) even though Congress had tied his hands.How were we to know it wasn't "fake news"...any of it,you can't trust anyone.The WP the NYT,ABC,CBS,ABC,CNN.Wait wasn't it the WP that broke the Flynn info......sorry I digress.Yeah, I'm pretty sure there was outrage.




example.....

http://www.thewarpath.net/debating-w...-released.html

[Chico23231]

Originally Posted by Giantone

Pretty sure there was "outrage" about everything you mentioned.I know I was how should I say it..".disagreed with "to be nice when all the Snowden crap was going on and certain poster's were happy it happen.Seems certain poster's are never happy.Obama was at fault for getting us into or keeping us in War and now he gets shit becuase he didn't stand up to Putin (with military force) even though Congress had tied his hands.How were we to know it wasn't "fake news"...any of it,you can't trust anyone.The WP the NYT,ABC,CBS,ABC,CNN.Wait wasn't it the WP that broke the Flynn info......sorry I digress.Yeah, I'm pretty sure there was outrage.

There was limited coverage and very little outrage. Nobody held the administration responsible for any of ass kicking they received. Even when these were FACTUAL events.

Now, rumors and speculation our report by the media as FACT.

There's the difference.


Doesn't everyone know the FBI investigated and interviewed Flynn about the speaking with the Russians and found he didn't lie to them and didn't break any laws? We know this fact, right?

[Chico23231]

Originally Posted by Giantone

Pretty sure there was "outrage" about everything you mentioned.I know I was how should I say it..".disagreed with "to be nice when all the Snowden crap was going on and certain poster's were happy it happen.Seems certain poster's are never happy.Obama was at fault for getting us into or keeping us in War and now he gets shit becuase he didn't stand up to Putin (with military force) even though Congress had tied his hands.How were we to know it wasn't "fake news"...any of it,you can't trust anyone.The WP the NYT,ABC,CBS,ABC,CNN.Wait wasn't it the WP that broke the Flynn info......sorry I digress.Yeah, I'm pretty sure there was outrage.




example.....

http://www.thewarpath.net/debating-w...-released.html

Nobody held the president and his state department responsible. Nobody..the media looked the other way, his brainwashed followers, etc. And still don't.

From now a historical perspective, which is still writing itself....Obama and his Presidency may go down as one of the worst Presidents when its comes to foreign policy. Certainly in the modern era

[Alvin Walton]

Originally Posted by Chico23231

Nobody held the president and his state department responsible. Nobody..the media looked the other way, his brainwashed followers, etc. And still don't.

From now a historical perspective, which is still writing itself....Obama and his Presidency may go down as one of the worst Presidents when its comes to foreign policy. Certainly in the modern era

And lets not forget about our sailors that were captured by the Iranians.
That was an epic fail for Obama.
I would have had the Straits of Hormuz locked down with Aegis cruisers pointing in all directions.

[TheMalcolmConnection]

I'm trying to look at this without considering past presidencies...

It is a total, 100% shit show. There is no one to blame but Trump.

In the grand scheme of everything, it's still extremely early in his presidency, but good lord, everything is falling apart and I don't think you can blame the media or blame either party. Sure (and I'm well aware of this fact) EVERYTHING he does is under the hottest microscope of all time, so it's reported on quite a bit. He's putting people who were "loyal" in positions of power; qualifications be damned.

I almost laugh when I hear some of the people he is hiring... It's like he intentionally picks the worst possible people for their jobs. There are a couple I agree with, but 80%-90% are just total head-scratchers.

I guess getting back to the question at hand, what would it take? Right now it would take a hell of a lot. I consider myself a reasonable person and I might be past changing at this point unless he does a total 180. We all know that isn't going to happen.

[Giantone]

Originally Posted by Chico23231

Nobody held the president and his state department responsible. Nobody..the media looked the other way, his brainwashed followers, etc. And still don't.

From now a historical perspective, which is still writing itself....Obama and his Presidency may go down as one of the worst Presidents when its comes to foreign policy. Certainly in the modern era

Sorry , I disagree ,one of the greatest ..."Hell NO" ,I understand that but sorry I disagree.

[Chico23231]

Originally Posted by Alvin Walton

And lets not forget about our sailors that were captured by the Iranians.
That was an epic fail for Obama.
I would have had the Straits of Hormuz locked down with Aegis cruisers pointing in all directions.

that was a terrible shit show...media still didn't go after the administration and the administration still gave Iran a sweetheart deal.



Could you fucking imagine if this happened with Trump in office? The media would crucify him...yet Obama, they simply looked the other way...why is that?

[CRedskinsRule]

I don't think - this close to the transition - that you can ignore the state of affairs the last President left the current administration. Just like in the beginning of Pres. Obama's administration the economy and surrounding travesties were direct consequences of the Bush administration.

I also think the major foot dragging in the senate hasn't enabled Trump to have his full team in place nearly a month into his administration, and that leaves more empty positions to be filled.

That said, I don't think Trump's campaign transition was good. I think his focus on pushing out executive orders every other day prevented some groundwork to be laid down, and for as radical as he wanted to change many departments he didn't account for the natural inertia of bureaucracies.

And even though he knows the media is, in general, against a non-liberal agenda, he failed to account for the sway it has over the day to day mood of the country. And he gave too much value to those who thought alternative media methods could counterbalance a heavyweight like CNN when it marshall's it's resources against your agenda.