All things Middle East related

[Chico23231]

Fuck isis

[donofriose]

Originally Posted by HailGreen28

That whole withdrawal from Gaza thing didn't work out. As long as rockets and terrorism continue, let the Israelis expand as they see fit. Yes, the cycle of violence continues. Ultimate responsibility lies with the group that has it in their charter to obliterate the other side, keeps breaking the ceasefires, and makes no effort to avoid civilian casualties.

That describes both sides...

[NC_Skins]

Originally Posted by HailGreen28

That whole withdrawal from Gaza thing didn't work out. As long as rockets and terrorism continue, let the Israelis expand as they see fit. Yes, the cycle of violence continues. Ultimate responsibility lies with the group that has it in their charter to obliterate the other side, keeps breaking the ceasefires, and makes no effort to avoid civilian casualties.

Gaza has nothing to do with the West Bank. You do realize they are two separate areas right? (apparently not) The land the Israelis are stealing isn't even remotely close to the Gaza strip where the conflict occurred.





For the those lacking knowledge of the area. Hamas doesn't govern nor control the West Bank. That territory is broken down into different Governorates with those being governed by the Palestinian National Authority.

Governorates of Palestine - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Palestinian National Authority - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Originally Posted by Chico23231

blame game is what holds everything back. This both need to come clean and bear some responsibility, both are in the wrong. Once that happens, then they can move forward.

He doesn't understand that the West Bank and Gaza are two different areas. No offense to HailGreen, but it's ignorant people like him that continue to excuse the crimes of Israel.

[Chico23231]

Another you got to realize that the Palenstinein authority runs West Bank and Hamas runs Gaza...i might have vice versa that...but thats the thing most dont realize. And because of that, there is an obvious power struggle.

[NC_Skins]

Looks like Israel is backing down. They'll just wait till it blows over and take the land without it going reported.

Israel cancels settlement plans due to international pressure | Middle East Eye

[HailGreen28]

Originally Posted by donofriose

That describes both sides...

Really, not saying Israel is perfect, but what other army calls up the home/businesses/whatever they are attacking to warn the occupants to leave, before attacking?

[HailGreen28]

Originally Posted by NC_Skins

Gaza has nothing to do with the West Bank. You do realize they are two separate areas right? (apparently not) The land the Israelis are stealing isn't even remotely close to the Gaza strip where the conflict occurred.

He doesn't understand that the West Bank and Gaza are two different areas. No offense to HailGreen, but it's ignorant people like him that continue to excuse the crimes of Israel.

No offense, NCSkins, but you are an idiot if you think Gaza and the West Bank are completely divorced from each other, that the faction in the West Bank hasn't launched intifadas in the past, and things are settled in either territory.

One terrorist attack was enough for us to invade afghanistan. How many rocket attacks does it take for Isreal to say that obviously Palestinians aren't yet willing to make lasting peace like the Egyptians did?

[That Guy]

Originally Posted by HailGreen28

Really, not saying Israel is perfect, but what other army calls up the home/businesses/whatever they are attacking to warn the occupants to leave, before attacking?

you mean like 2008 when they told everyone they wouldn't be attacking the UN school compound, people went there, and then they bombed it anyways?

or when they use white phosphorus and accidentally burnt the palestine food aid?

you're taking one detail that they sometimes give warning and ignoring the other details involving thousands of detentions, hundreds of civilian deaths, and a planned overt land grab over 3 dead israelis. the reaction is just not proportional.

[HailGreen28]

Originally Posted by That Guy

you mean like 2008 when they told everyone they wouldn't be attacking the UN school compound, people went there, and then they bombed it anyways?

or when they use white phosphorus and accidentally burnt the palestine food aid?

you're taking one detail that they sometimes give warning and ignoring the other details involving thousands of detentions, hundreds of civilian deaths, and a planned overt land grab over 3 dead israelis. the reaction is just not proportional.

Not just "one detail", you are the one cherry picking, as far back as 2008, to try making Isreal look as bad as the Hamas terrorist organization.

Keep in mind all of the above, even spun as you did, is in response to unprovoked rocket and other terrorist attacks by Palestinians. (Unprovoked, because they occur whether Israel withdraws from or occupies land, and simple existing isn't justifiable provocation to be attacked.)

What Israel is saying:

Methods of Avoiding Civilian Casualties
1. Phone calls: (snip)
2. Leaflets: (snip)
3. 3. Diverting missiles in mid-flight (snip)


What Hamas is saying:

First, the ministry calling all our people not to deal or pay attention to the psychological warfare carried out by the occupation through rumors that broadcast across his media and delivering publications and communications on the phones of citizens, and the lack of response for each of these means, which aims to weaken the domestic front in light of great steadfastness of our people to face the aggression.

So to recruit more terrorists, Hams is less concerned about Palestinian civilians than Israel is. And don't forget the total indiscriminate Palestinian rocket attacks on Israeli civilians.

And aside from the difficulties in hitting target accurately, Hamas hiding behind civilians and other "safe" areas, makes it harder to avoid civilian casualties.

The United Nations has found troves of rockets hidden in three of its schools since the conflict began. “We condemn the group or groups who endangered civilians by placing these munitions in our school,” Chris Gunness, spokesman for the U.N. Relief and Works Agency, said in statement published Wednesday by the Times of Israel. “This is yet another flagrant violation of the neutrality of our premises. We call on all the warring parties to respect the inviolability of U.N. property.”

Earlier this month, the United Nations also found rockets piled inside one of its vacant schools — near other schools used to accommodate displaced people.

So quit pretending that Hamas isn't the party actually responsible for civilian deaths in Gaza. In addition to being responsible for their own attacks on Israel.

[CRedskinsRule]

Sometimes, I think the warnings are just an additional psychological warfare.
A) it reinforces the fact that the Palestinians can't stop it, which is humiliating and degrading
B) it rarely affords enough time for true evacuations, so you have x number of minutes waiting whether or not the bombs will come. For example they demolished a 12 story building a few weeks ago with 15 minute warning. I am sure that the Palestinians had plenty of time from that to have an orderly and systematic exit from their residence. Heck, I evacuate all my belongings in 10minutes every other Saturday - just for fun [/sarc]

I mean imagine a burglar so confident that he was untouchable that he tells you he is going to come in, take all your money and kill your wife in 20 minutes. You would do everything you could to make sure he couldn't. But suppose he had done it to every other house in your neighborhood, and never been stopped, or arrested. Then maybe you just feel terror that it's happening to you this time. And maybe if a group of people tell you, we can't stop the burglar but we could hurt his family, or his community, maybe you don't consider it as wrong to support that group as an outside viewer might. Maybe you just want vengeance and outsiders that don't even share your basic life views can piss in the wind.
Maybe.

[CRedskinsRule]

How many Israeli civilian deaths have occurred from the indiscriminate rocket fire? How many Palestinian civilian deaths from the announced "targeted" air strikes?

I get that Hamas is guilty too. Neither side has blood free hands. But it amazes me the lengths supporters of Israel go to negate the obvious control Israel has over the whole situation. When Egypt and Jordan were part of it, Yeah, Israel was fighting for survival, but that's not the case now. Israel Egypt and Jordan have a basic understanding. Israel as a state isn't going to go extinct because Hamas is sending volleys of rockets to their doom and useless end.
Israel wants the extinction of Hamas as much as Hamas wants Israel's extinction, the only difference is Israel's attacks don't end in useless boom's, they take down 12 story buildings with civilians in them as well. They take out UN supported shelters filled with women, seniors, and children. And once in a blue moon they actually take out a leader of Hamas.

[Chico23231]

And this is exactly what keeps the israel and palestine conflict rolling

[That Guy]

"as far back as 2008" so, how often should they be invaded and bombed out? every 6 years isn't soon enough for you? 3 israeli lives are worth an invasion and 1300+ lives in palestine (palestinian territories)?

i'm not saying hamas is right or good or anything like that. i think you're viewing this issue too emotionally though, cause nothing you posted is new or refutes anything i've said.

and it's nice that they're giving warning, but again, there are still plenty of misidentified targets leading to lots of civilian collateral damage, which has been evident.

add to that the encroachment and seizing of land that they have no legal right to (the settlements) and whose displaced owners are not compensated, and it's creates an endless circle of grievances.


btw, what's the death toll of those "indiscriminate Palestinian rocket (and mortar) attacks?" 1300? nope. 130? no, it's 33 since 2001. that's quite a bit more than 0, which is what it should be. again, rocket attacks are bad, but the response seems like taking a sledgehammer to a thumbtack.

[NC_Skins]

Originally Posted by HailGreen28

No offense, NCSkins, but you are an idiot if you think Gaza and the West Bank are completely divorced from each other, that the faction in the West Bank hasn't launched intifadas in the past, and things are settled in either territory.

One terrorist attack was enough for us to invade afghanistan. How many rocket attacks does it take for Isreal to say that obviously Palestinians aren't yet willing to make lasting peace like the Egyptians did?

I think it's you that doesn't have a clue about the situation in Palestine/Israel. The fact you don't know the difference between the West Bank and Gaza tells me everything, and the fact you think it's ok for them to steal land (in a completely different area not even relating to the conflict) confirms that notion.

Can you tell me the last time a rocket attack came from the West Bank?

Notice you don't see Israel stealing Egypt's land. How much peace do you think there will be if Israel starts trying to take land in Lebanon or Egypt?


Here is some more information I suggest you read so you can be informed.

BBC News - Palestinian territories profile - Overview

Separate factions

The Fatah faction of the PLO ran the PNA until 2006, when Hamas won a majority in Legislative Council elections. Uneasy co-existence between PNA President Mahmoud Abbas and a Hamas-led government led to violence between armed wings of Fatah and Hamas, culminating in Hamas seizing power in Gaza in June 2007 and President Abbas dismissing the government.

They are supposedly trying to work out a unified government via this deal they agreed to in April, but I don't see it happening really.

BBC News - Hamas and Fatah unveil Palestinian reconciliation deal

[HailGreen28]

Originally Posted by NC_Skins

I think it's you that doesn't have a clue about the situation in Palestine/Israel. The fact you don't know the difference between the West Bank and Gaza tells me everything, and the fact you think it's ok for them to steal land (in a completely different area not even relating to the conflict) confirms that notion.

Can you tell me the last time a rocket attack came from the West Bank?

Notice you don't see Israel stealing Egypt's land. How much peace do you think there will be if Israel starts trying to take land in Lebanon or Egypt?


Here is some more information I suggest you read so you can be informed.

BBC News - Palestinian territories profile - Overview

They are supposedly trying to work out a unified government via this deal they agreed to in April, but I don't see it happening really.

BBC News - Hamas and Fatah unveil Palestinian reconciliation deal

Re-read what I posted, NCSkins, so you don't look so foolish next time. Where the hell did you get the warped idea that I don't know the difference between the West Bank and Gaza?

But thanks for posting links that the two territories are trying to work together.

If Eygpt started rocket attacks on Israel, how peaceful do you think things there would be?

When you get more informed, maybe we can have a more productive discussion. Right now you are lagging way behind the times.