Steve Young's family up against Mormon church on Prop. 8

[FRPLG]

Originally Posted by Beemnseven

It's funny that with issues like homosexuality and drugs, social conservatives lose their capacity for logic and rational thought.

They lose a lot of "logic and rational" on most social issues it seems.

[saden1]

Originally Posted by Slingin Sammy 33

In VA, it would depend on how the law was written, but I could vote against it.

(Not to completely derail the thread)That being said, I would be much more inclined to do so, if I knew as a quid pro quo those that support gay marriage would then support a national ban on third trimester abortion, except in the cases of a threat to the life of the mother.

This is the text of Prop 8, let's go with that.

Section I. Title
This measure shall be known and may be cited as the "California Marriage Protection Act."

Section 2. Article I. Section 7.5 is added to the California Constitution. to read:
Sec. 7.5. Only marriage between a man and a woman is valid or recognized in California.

Originally Posted by Slingin Sammy 33

(Not to completely derail the thread)That being said, I would be much more inclined to do so, if I knew as a quid pro quo those that support gay marriage would then support a national ban on third trimester abortion, except in the cases of a threat to the life of the mother.

I'm not entirely sure what you're saying here unless you get something in return? You have a right to put up a prop on the ballet.

[Slingin Sammy 33]

Originally Posted by saden1

This is the text of Prop 8, let's go with that.

I'm not entirely sure what you're saying here unless you get something in return? You have a right to put up a prop on the ballet.

First part, yes. I could vote against that.

Second part, life is a negotiation. Why would I give my support to something I'm morally against without a quid pro quo. And since we're asking hypothetical questions....if I was successful in putting a prop on the ballot in Washington State outlawing third trimester abortion do you support it? If not, and there's a gay marriage support prop on the ballot and conservatives in Wash St. agree to support the gay marriage prop, do you then support the third trimester abortion ban?

[saden1]

Originally Posted by Slingin Sammy 33

First part, yes. I could vote against that.

Second part, life is a negotiation. Why would I give my support to something I'm morally against without a quid pro quo. And since we're asking hypothetical questions....if I was successful in putting a prop on the ballot in Washington State outlawing third trimester abortion do you support it? If not, and there's a gay marriage support prop on the ballot and conservatives in Wash St. agree to support the gay marriage prop, do you then support the third trimester abortion ban?

We are voters not legislators able to cut deals. I tend to base my vote on things I believe or don't believe in not whether I can get something in return or how others vote. I believe in a ban on partial birth abortion as long as there is no health issue, including mental health. It is a reasonable...you got 4 months to make a decision, make one and live with it.

Do the right thing, always, and if you think gay marriage is morally wrong but a ban on it constitutionally indefensible you need to make a choice where you stand and how you vote. Don't try to bargain and hold people hostage because it makes it easier for you to make a choice and feel good about your choice.

[Slingin Sammy 33]

Originally Posted by saden1

We are voters not legislators able to cut deals. I tend to base my vote on things I believe or don't believe in not whether I can get something in return or how others vote. I believe in a ban on partial birth abortion as long as there is no health issue, including mental health. It is a reasonable...you got 4 months to make a decision, make one and live with it.

Do the right thing, always, and if you think gay marriage is morally wrong but a ban on it constitutionally indefensible you need to make a choice where you stand and how you vote. Don't try to bargain and hold people hostage because it makes it easier for you to make a choice and feel good about your choice.

LOL on the lecture. You also mention ban on partial birth abortion, not third trimester. You then throw in the caveat of "mental health" which makes a ban basically not worth the paper it's written on. So much for the courage of going against the hard core left's social agenda.

I knew where you were going with this, just wondering how long it would take to get there....and we're at the same spot as always.

[tryfuhl]

Originally Posted by saden1

We are voters not legislators able to cut deals. I tend to base my vote on things I believe or don't believe in not

I tend to vote on which I think would be better for the greater population. Though personally I have a lot of conservative views I don't think that my singular opinion should be reflected in the governance of such a diverse nation.

[saden1]

Originally Posted by Slingin Sammy 33

LOL on the lecture. You also mention ban on partial birth abortion, not third trimester. You then throw in the caveat of "mental health" which makes a ban basically not worth the paper it's written on. So much for the courage of going against the hard core left's social agenda.

I knew where you were going with this, just wondering how long it would take to get there....and we're at the same spot as always.

I am more than happy to be the professor. Have you resolved your conflict or you still in limbo? Just know that it isn't necessary for you to display compliance in an online forum.

What would the text of your prop say? Ban third trimester in all cases except when health is an issue but not mental health? I never claimed to go against "hard core leftist social agenda." Where is that coming from? Are you simply throwing an anchor and hoping it catches something?

[saden1]

Originally Posted by tryfuhl

I tend to vote on which I think would be better for the greater population. Though personally I have a lot of conservative views I don't think that my singular opinion should be reflected in the governance of such a diverse nation.

Give me an instance where you voted against your beliefs.

[firstdown]

I personally don't really care if gays get married or not but if I had to vote on the issue I would have to really take a close look at the pros & cons. We also have to remember the government does not ban gays from getting married they just don't recognize their marriage through the state. I have a gay cousin and a few friends that are gay. One actually says he has found god and is no longer gay so I guess in his case it was a choice. I have always felt that 50% of gays are born that way and the other 50% choose the life style for one reason or the other.

[Chico23231]

Originally Posted by firstdown

I personally don't really care if gays get married or not but if I had to vote on the issue I would have to really take a close look at the pros & cons. We also have to remember the government does not ban gays from getting married they just don't recognize their marriage through the state. I have a gay cousin and a few friends that are gay. One actually says he has found god and is no longer gay so I guess in his case it was a choice. I have always felt that 50% of gays are born that way and the other 50% choose the life style for one reason or the other.

50%? So you think half of the gay population choses that lifestyle cause its cool? Yeah Im sure they enjoy prevalent discrimination, being the victim of hate crimes, higher sucide and substance abuse rates...I dont think too many people who want to chose that...i think your ratio is off, more like 95% to 5% and half of the 5% probably in jail.

[GhettoDogAllStars]

Originally Posted by BleedBurgundy

It's not about sheltering kids from "ever" receiving the education or actually being delusional enough to think they're not going to find out about it. It IS about believing that individual families have the right to decide how/when the child is introduced to such realities. I don't personally believe that a kid learns about homosexuality = a kid decides to be gay. So, Matty's comment in response to your post is a typical misread of the situation and pretty common overreaction. I do find it entertaining (and disappointing) that those most up in arms about the rights of those they agree with are the first to resort to name calling and sarcasm instead of rational discussion, on both sides. I support everyone else's right to freedom up until the second that it infringes upon my own. I don't believe that to be unreasonable, it's just the truth.

I agree that individual families have the right to decide for themselves. I would (almost) never want to decide for others, which is why I support gay marriage. I just don't understand those families that would shelter their kids from learning about reality.

To me, it's all about teaching critical thinking above all else. If your child is learning math, then they're capable of learning critical thinking.

But, it seems most parents today are less concerned about giving their children the tools to think critically -- so they can arrive at their own decisions (which will inevitably happen anyways) -- and are more concerned with influencing their decisions and opinions. It's a model for failure IMO.

[GhettoDogAllStars]

Originally Posted by saden1

Give me an instance where you voted against your beliefs.

Those are his beliefs. He's a Contractarian.

[firstdown]

Originally Posted by Chico23231

50%? So you think half of the gay population choses that lifestyle cause its cool? Yeah Im sure they enjoy prevalent discrimination, being the victim of hate crimes, higher sucide and substance abuse rates...I dont think too many people who want to chose that...i think your ratio is off, more like 95% to 5% and half of the 5% probably in jail.

Yea its not like people don't chose to do other stupid stuff every day and why would I ever think that someone could do some like that. LOL By the way do you smoke?

[MTK]

So we're comparing choosing to smoke with choosing to be gay?



I think you're either gay or you're not. Seems like an awfully odd "choice" to make.

[saden1]

I'm sure we can all remember the day we made a choice to be heterosexuals...for me it was the first time I saw boobs in a movie. They seemed mysterious and magical and I had this urge to want to touch them and squeeze them and play with them and discover the physics of them.