When is Enough ,Enough?

[MTK]

Originally Posted by Chico23231

This is such a bad article on so many levels and speaks to manipulate stats for a narrative. Never mind the resource is from an anti police group.

Show me evidence the numbers are wrong

[MTK]

Risk of Police-Involved Death by Race/Ethnicity and Place, United States, 2012–2018

[BaltimoreSkins]

Originally Posted by Chico23231

Thanks I’ll look through it. A couple things off the bat strike me as kinda off, especially if you are gonna dive into mental health and emotional issues...at the same time blame police And the justice system because they are not equipped. Look at root cause of why there is these issues. It’s like taking kids to school and acting like they are the baby sitter...the expectation they should need to deal with it is incorrect. Plus simply saying black people have more of these issues...not sure on that.

Recidivism rates is always a hot topic because that’s the key to curbing...but I’ll look at what you sent.

As someone who worked in juvenile justice, I did see emotional issues and resources were abundant to address these on many levels, a lot of time people don’t use them when there were free. You know what the driver is for juvenile crime and justice? Bad fucking parents period. I worked in a mostly white rural county and I worked in a major diverse city. Fact check: true. Substance abuse and mental issue distance second and third.

I agree about training always...but with the policing culture there needs to be active conversations about identifying bad police. Whistle blower protection through chain of command, review of all injuries suspects receive in police contact, etc

Bad parenting is a major issue. I work in a high school so I know what you mean. The amount of resources we are spending on social and emotional development increases every year. Ideally I would like to see those resources channeled towards the elementary schools where we can address behavior and societal norms at an early age (a social worker and behavior interventionist at every elementary school) and thus decrease lost time in the classroom due to management issues at the high school level. Ideally parents would be the driving force.

[Buffalo Bob]

Originally Posted by MTK

Between 2013 and 2019, police in the United States killed 7,666 people, according to data compiled by Mapping Police Violence, a research and advocacy group. On May 25, 2020 at 9:25pm (02:25 GMT, May 26), George Floyd, a 46-year-old resident of Minnesota, became yet another victim of police brutality as he was killed in police custody while unarmed. Floyd's death has prompted thousands of protesters to march in cities around the country demanding justice and an end to police violence.

The number of police killings in the US disproportionately affects African Americans. Despite only making up 13 percent of the US population, Black Americans are two-and-a-half times as likely as white Americans to be killed by the police.

Unsurprisingly, the three largest states - California, Texas and Florida - have the highest total number of killings of Black people by police officers. Once these figures are adjusted for the population size and demographics, in nearly every state, African Americans face a significantly higher risk of being killed by police officers than white Americans.

In Utah, the African Americans comprise just 1.06 percent of the population but they accounted for 10 percent of police killings over the past seven years - a disproportional rate of 9.21 times. In Minnesota, Black Americans are nearly four times as likely to be killed by law enforcement, with Black victims comprising 20 percent of those killed, despite comprising only 5 percent of the overall population.

Mapping US police killings of Black Americans

According to the US Department of Justice, African Americans accounted for 52.5% of all homicide offenders from 1980 to 2008, with Whites 45.3% and "Other" 2.2%.

You think the above might contribute to interactions with police ending badly?

[MTK]

I don't get into victim blaming sorry

[GridIron26]

Originally Posted by sdskinsfan2001

1. Trump doesn't take significant action, he is not a leader
2. Trump does take significant action, he is a dictator

Either way he loses and orange man bad.

And ignore all violence and looting that is completely hijacking the death of Mr. Floyd and the issue of police brutality that does need to be addressed. Ignore that people's property is being destroyed and people themselves are being hurt. Ignore that this is leading to more deaths. Ignore that significant chunks of towns are being destroyed. Ignore that it appears agitators are being bussed into places to inflame tensions and riots. A bunch of Officer Barbradys.

There are good ways for Trump to take significant actions to demonstrate his leadership without being deemed as a dictator, thus let me add #3 option for you:
1. Trump doesn't take significant action, he is not a leader
2. Trump does take significant action, he is a dictator
3. Trump talks to public and encourage everyone to work together, works with all governors and provide all supports they need from him.

But as we all already know, Trump chose to attack some of the protesters and the governors, made threats to take full control, and apparently encouraging violence against the protestors who partake in the riots. Trump even tried to politicize those incidents by targeting the governors who are Democrats, claiming that they are weak. In my eyes, this is not a real leadership action. Heck, even the leadership courses/workshops would preach against this move.

First of all, let me emphasize the fact that I do not support the riots caused by some of protesters, I cannot imagine what business owners in those locations are going through. I truly hope none of this will force some business to close permanently due to financial losses. I discussed this situation with my girlfriend and we both realized how those riots are forcing America to open their eyes wider and fully acknowledge the discrimination. Now, lawmakers, companies and people are trying to figure out how they could work to resolve the discrimination. Can you guys honestly say that those people would be doing all of this if there were no riots? I personally say no. We all know that police have been racial-profiling against black people for years and yet there were not much done to resolve it. Kaepernick tried to do something about it but some people chose to completely disregard Kaepernick’s purpose for kneeing during the national Anthem and claim that Kaepernick was dishonoring America. Even Trump promoted that conspiracy theory. Nothing significant was done to resolve the issues after the Kaepernick incident. After the Kaepernick incident, some black people were killed by police during arrests, being unfairly targeted by police for minor violations, etc - nothing significant happened that would resolve the racial-profiling. Until now, the only difference is the riots are happening and now there are people working to do something about the race discrimination.

Thanks Buffalo for pointing out the fact that more white people are killed by police than black people. I dug around and learned this fact to be true. Also, more white people have been arrested by police than black people from 1980 to 2015, according to Bureau of Justice Statistics. On average, approximately 9 million white people were arrested every 5 years within that time frame and roughly 3.75 million black people were arrested every 5 years in the same time frame. Although, we must consider the ratios as well. According to the US Census Bureau, in 2019, 60.4% of Americans are white, 13.4% are black. According to Pew Research Center, at the end of 2017, the US had 475,900 black prisoners and 436,500 white prisoners (39,400 difference). The research noted how the gap between blacks and whites have been narrowing in the last 10 years. In 2007, there were 592,900 black prisoners and 499,800 white prisoners (93,100 difference). This trend shows that America have been improving, unfortunately the media don’t show that.

Even with those stats, we still need to acknowledge the fact that police do treat black people differently than white people. There are multiple researches that shows how police often treat black people differently than any other races.

Ivanka Trump and her husband, Jared have been working with #50Cut organization which focus on reforming the criminal justice system, and the organization played a big role in helping the First Step Act become into a bill. This is a great step for the Trump administration; however this bill focuses on helping prisoners to reintegrate into the public after being released from prison. Although, I believe this gives Trump a great opportunity to do so much more in reforming the criminal justice system by work on bills that will reform the ENTIRE criminal justice system. Will Trump take an advantage of this, or will he make this situation worse? So far, Trump is off to a bad start, but he still has the opportunity to turn this around. For America’s sake, I hope Trump will work with everyone to resolve this.



Sources - by the way, can someone tell me how to create hyperlinks on this forum?

https://www.bjs.gov/index.cfm?ty=dat...ests/index.cfm

https://www.statista.com/statistics/...olice-by-race/

https://www.census.gov/quickfacts/fa...e/US/PST045219

https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tan...tes-in-prison/

[Buffalo Bob]

Originally Posted by BaltimoreSkins

Bad parenting is a major issue. I work in a high school so I know what you mean. The amount of resources we are spending on social and emotional development increases every year. Ideally I would like to see those resources channeled towards the elementary schools where we can address behavior and societal norms at an early age (a social worker and behavior interventionist at every elementary school) and thus decrease lost time in the classroom due to management issues at the high school level. Ideally parents would be the driving force.

Unfortunately some kids need an ass whipping from time to time, and that is considered child abuse now. I think replacing the belt with pills has led to issues.

I can remember being a kid and the fear of the belt kept me from smoking, petty theft, playing with matches, etc. Where I went to elementary school all the parents in the neighborhood stuck together. Even the ice cream man would rat a kid out. One time a couple friends of mine were trying cigarettes for the first time in a construction project long before they fenced them in.
They were spied a mile away by the guy who drove Helms Bakery truck. That was a long since defunct company that delivered baked goods door to door in SoCal. He ratted one kid out to the parents and he squealed on the other two. They all ended up with sore butts. The fear of that was why I didn't go with them.

[Chico23231]

Originally Posted by MTK

I don't get into victim blaming sorry

So no context to blanket stats? Don’t you want to know if the subjects are armed or not? Suicide by cop scenarios?

I know the violent crime stats are tough discussions but I guess it’s easier to say use the blanket stats.

So for one, the data can’t be trusted the resources has a preferred outcome. When I went to access the data when it was small it wouldn’t let me see more info. Just use the fbi crime stats or Wash Post had a good link. Also they decided to use ratio and percentages when the numbers were small. The Utah cherry pick is so poor as well, like the whitest state to inflate the overall ratio...if the number was 8, U could look cases by case for root cause.

What I want to know is the 9 deaths of unarmed black persons last year, what’s the story? Who was the victim and who was the cop who killed them? It wouldn’t take long for the Wash Post or NYT to do that.

[Buffalo Bob]

Originally Posted by MTK

I don't get into victim blaming sorry

So are you saying everyone killed by police is a "victim"?

George Floyd was obviously a victim of a cop that should have had his badge taken ages ago. Pretty sure incidents like his are a small percentage of the cop killings. They are just the ones that get all the publicity. Police average almost 1,000 killings a year we only hear about the ones that are obviously unjustified or questionable.

[Buffalo Bob]

This is just as disgusting as George Floyd and then some as there were more participants.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_Kelly_Thomas

There were only a handful of local protests. That is the town I went to High School in. I don't remember this getting much coverage as the victim was a small white homeless man. Most bad cops are equal opportunity victimizers but if it happens to a minority every Democrat immediately screams racism.

I always wonder what the root cause of bad cops is. Is it the type of person attracted to the job or does the job turn good people bad?

[MTK]

Originally Posted by Buffalo Bob

So are you saying everyone killed by police is a "victim"?

George Floyd was obviously a victim of a cop that should have had his badge taken ages ago. Pretty sure incidents like his are a small percentage of the cop killings. They are just the ones that get all the publicity. Police average almost 1,000 killings a year we only hear about the ones that are obviously unjustified or questionable.

Even if it's a small number of unjustified acts, it's still a big issue.

Cops can do better. The justice system can do better. Racism continues to be a problem. I hope we can all agree on that.

[SolidSnake84]

Originally Posted by Buffalo Bob

Unfortunately some kids need an ass whipping from time to time, and that is considered child abuse now. I think replacing the belt with pills has led to issues.

I can remember being a kid and the fear of the belt kept me from smoking, petty theft, playing with matches, etc. Where I went to elementary school all the parents in the neighborhood stuck together. Even the ice cream man would rat a kid out. One time a couple friends of mine were trying cigarettes for the first time in a construction project long before they fenced them in.
They were spied a mile away by the guy who drove Helms Bakery truck. That was a long since defunct company that delivered baked goods door to door in SoCal. He ratted one kid out to the parents and he squealed on the other two. They all ended up with sore butts. The fear of that was why I didn't go with them.

I think if we went back to that way now, most people wouldn't know when to draw the line on how much of a beating to give / too severe, etc..

Some of my grandma's siblings had permanent scarring from being whipped with switches / extension cords, etc..

My dad's step father was abusive and my dad has a divot in his shoulder where a big chunk of meat just came out from being beaten. He has scars on the back of his legs too.

And i want to believe that their parents didn't set out on purpose to savagely beat them, but i'm sure along the way it just happened and in the heat of the moment they could not stop themselves until after major harm was inflicted.

That's why i think it's probably good that parents aren't still beating / whipping their children like back in the old days.

[Buffalo Bob]

Originally Posted by MTK

Even if it's a small number of unjustified acts, it's still a big issue.

Cops can do better. The justice system can do better. Racism continues to be a problem. I hope we can all agree on that.

I am not disagreeing. I believe the media fans the flames of unrest & makes matters worse, not better. What I have trouble believing is how people think the situation with police has not improved with modern technology.

My father was a city cop and then a CHP (California Highway Patrol) from the early 60's to early 80's. Trust me they got away with crap they would not get away with today. Fortunately for most my dad was more into abusing his family and not the general public.

When I was 12 my grandma came and rescued us. My dad didn't hit my 10 year old sister. I got the worst of it. I heard my dad tell my mom don't ever waste your time calling the police on him as he knows them all. My dad bragged about being able to inflict pain and not leave marks. When I was 18 during a visit he said something to my girlfriend behind my back that made her cry. I invited him to step outside as I am bigger and stronger than him now and don't have to take his crap. He just said he could shoot me and get away with it.

Today thanks to cell phones people like my dad end up in jail, spousal abuse seemed to be pretty common among his peers back then. The fear of being caught on audio or video has to get some of the cops otherwise prone to overstep their bounds in check.

As for the rest of them I am afraid better over site and pay could improve law enforcement. The last cop I had personal contact with was about a 15 years
ago, a cousin who was a county sheriff in So Cal. As of then they still were only psychologically evaluated post academy if there was a major incident.
Since people can develop mental issues at any stage in life I believe a mental evaluation of a law enforcement officer should be done on a yearly basis.
While the cop that killed George Floyd had a history of complaints, I believe the job does turn good people bad, and those guys need weeded out.

I find it perfect comedy how on shows like cops all policemen say they were attracted to the job due to wanting to serve the community. Not only did I meet many a cop from my dad. I used to go to a fitness center where cops and fireman got free memberships. The majority said it was great pay and benefits for a job not requiring college education or specific skills. A few others said they had relatives that were cops, the old family tradition. Possibly raising the pay rates more would even attract better people.

[Buffalo Bob]

Originally Posted by SolidSnake84

I think if we went back to that way now, most people wouldn't know when to draw the line on how much of a beating to give / too severe, etc..

Some of my grandma's siblings had permanent scarring from being whipped with switches / extension cords, etc..

My dad's step father was abusive and my dad has a divot in his shoulder where a big chunk of meat just came out from being beaten. He has scars on the back of his legs too.

And i want to believe that their parents didn't set out on purpose to savagely beat them, but i'm sure along the way it just happened and in the heat of the moment they could not stop themselves until after major harm was inflicted.

That's why i think it's probably good that parents aren't still beating / whipping their children like back in the old days.

I am against abuse as I was abused also. A whack in the butt with a paddle will suffice. I knew many a kid where one swat one time was all they needed.

[BaltimoreSkins]

There is too much evidence that supports a correlation between physical discipline and poor mental, physical development, later romantic relationship abuse and criminal behavior for me to condone and it is too difficult to be subjective. I think firm standards and set consequences would suffice. The major issue with education is the pendulum has swung so far in terms of classroom management to the point that standards are arbitrary. In my school a category 3 offense such as physically assaulting a teacher will lead to a long term suspension but in my wife's school that same offense the student will be back the next day. Allowing for the administration at different schools in the same district sends confusing messages especially when 30% of the students are transitory and can end up switching school to school in year depending on living situations.

Part of that are the silly statistics that are required to be maintained by the US Dept of Ed where suspension rates and smaller graduation rates count against schools for federal funding thus some schools will likely be more relaxed with discipline to keep funding. Personally this is ridiculous sometimes you have to suck it up and do addition by subtraction. When you have a 19 year old sophomore that kid is not getting any services they need and impeding the services for other students.