What would it take?

[mooby]

I just realized I never answered the original question. What would it take for me to trust Donald's vision and plan for America?

1. He would have to admit he isn't the smartest expert of them all, and that he is open to hearing the argument as to why global warming exists. He doesn't have to admit it, he just needs to say "hey I recognize there are better experts on the subject than myself" and at the same time be open to new ideas.

2. At the same time, that idea applies to mostly everything he does. If he came out and said he will lean on the judgement of his advisors and he is only as good as the people around him I would give him credit for that. Personally I hate his advisers (minus a couple) but that's a discussion for another day. This is more about Trump admitting his shortcomings and accepting that he can't be the savior all by himself.

3. Abandon the wall idea, and put that money to better use. More agents, more technology, I'm all in favor of supporting ICE and the Border Patrol. A wall is not a good use of that money.

4. Rather than (paraphrasing here) tell the public you are going to get rid of every Obama accomplishment you can, why not just say "everything will be evaluated on a case-by-case basis." He looks like an idiot that's willing to sign anything thrown on his desk without evaluating it first.

That would be it for starters. If I want to get all nitpicky I could write an even longer list but we all know none of this shit is happening anyways. That man loves stroking his own ego. He could be a total failure and still come out after leaving office talking about "I am the greatest President in American history." "He is a modern day George Washington, MLK, and Ghandi rolled into one - Donald J. Trump"

[TheMalcolmConnection]

Originally Posted by mooby

I just realized I never answered the original question. What would it take for me to trust Donald's vision and plan for America?

1. He would have to admit he isn't the smartest expert of them all, and that he is open to hearing the argument as to why global warming exists. He doesn't have to admit it, he just needs to say "hey I recognize there are better experts on the subject than myself" and at the same time be open to new ideas.

2. At the same time, that idea applies to mostly everything he does. If he came out and said he will lean on the judgement of his advisors and he is only as good as the people around him I would give him credit for that. Personally I hate his advisers (minus a couple) but that's a discussion for another day. This is more about Drumpf admitting his shortcomings and accepting that he can't be the savior all by himself.

3. Abandon the wall idea, and put that money to better use. More agents, more technology, I'm all in favor of supporting ICE and the Border Patrol. A wall is not a good use of that money.

4. Rather than (paraphrasing here) tell the public you are going to get rid of every Obama accomplishment you can, why not just say "everything will be evaluated on a case-by-case basis." He looks like an idiot that's willing to sign anything thrown on his desk without evaluating it first.

That would be it for starters. If I want to get all nitpicky I could write an even longer list but we all know none of this shit is happening anyways. That man loves stroking his own ego. He could be a total failure and still come out after leaving office talking about "I am the greatest President in American history." "He is a modern day George Washington, MLK, and Ghandi rolled into one - Donald J. Drumpf"

This is 100% how I feel. 100%.

[Chico23231]

Originally Posted by mooby

I just realized I never answered the original question. What would it take for me to trust Donald's vision and plan for America?

1. He would have to admit he isn't the smartest expert of them all, and that he is open to hearing the argument as to why global warming exists. He doesn't have to admit it, he just needs to say "hey I recognize there are better experts on the subject than myself" and at the same time be open to new ideas.

2. At the same time, that idea applies to mostly everything he does. If he came out and said he will lean on the judgement of his advisors and he is only as good as the people around him I would give him credit for that. Personally I hate his advisers (minus a couple) but that's a discussion for another day. This is more about Trump admitting his shortcomings and accepting that he can't be the savior all by himself.

3. Abandon the wall idea, and put that money to better use. More agents, more technology, I'm all in favor of supporting ICE and the Border Patrol. A wall is not a good use of that money.

4. Rather than (paraphrasing here) tell the public you are going to get rid of every Obama accomplishment you can, why not just say "everything will be evaluated on a case-by-case basis." He looks like an idiot that's willing to sign anything thrown on his desk without evaluating it first.

That would be it for starters. If I want to get all nitpicky I could write an even longer list but we all know none of this shit is happening anyways. That man loves stroking his own ego. He could be a total failure and still come out after leaving office talking about "I am the greatest President in American history." "He is a modern day George Washington, MLK, and Ghandi rolled into one - Donald J. Trump"

good post...I agree with most. I think the wall (which by the way is strategically already erected from 10 years ago in some places) should go up in other places it is not ie: places where people(farmers, land owners) that feel generally unsafe that proven unknowns (ie human trafficker, gun and drug runners) cross. Blanket policies and acts generally don't work...so a policy of build a complete wall is foolish.

[mooby]

Originally Posted by Chico23231

good post...I agree with most. I think the wall (which by the way is strategically already erected from 10 years ago in some places) should go up in other places it is not ie: places where people(farmers, land owners) that feel generally unsafe that proven unknowns (ie human trafficker, gun and drug runners) cross. Blanket policies and acts generally don't work...so a policy of build a complete wall is foolish.

I am sure there is already a wall/fence in place in well-populated areas, so I'm not sure if he plans to strengthen those or what, but if he is envisioning a great wall of china type ordeal that is just a waste. There's a million ways to get around it. They'll switch to boats. They'll make larger tunnels. They will keep flying into the US on visas then staying when the visa expires. They'll attack the wall when the border patrol isn't watching. A wall is just a feel-good concept to make people feel better.

Not just that but why not use that money to expand the fleet, put more boots on the ground, throw in more motion sensors, maybe develop or even expand technology that helps them detect tunnels (which are already a major source of contraband coming north).

Originally Posted by TheMalcolmConnection

This is 100% how I feel. 100%.

Thanks. Nice edit btw, . I gave up on the Drumpf name a while ago, it seems like nobody cares about that one. Glad to see somebody is still using it.

[Chico23231]

What's the excuse to immigrate legally?

[Chico23231]

Obama famously told Eric Cantor in a private meeting that "elections have consequences" after the Democrats won the White House and controlled Congress.Nov 5, 2014

yes they do

[CRedskinsRule]

The Senate Republicans are absolutely a stupid group, why cut off Warren's ramble in the middle of the night. Let them talkety talk talk talk, then once done. Vote and be done with it. Nope, instead, let's cut her off in the middle of a letter from MLK's wife. Idiots.

[mooby]

Originally Posted by Chico23231

What's the excuse to immigrate legally?

I think the reason so many don't wait to immigrate legally is because it is an already complicated and overwhelming process that often takes a long time. Imagine living in one of those border cities in Mexico where the death toll is insane thanks to the constant fighting, hell I'm sure there are families that have already seen too much death on a regular basis. Should they have to wait a year or two or however long it takes to process the application and go through the vetting? On top of that they might have already tried and gotten turned down. Then what? I guess they are just stuck living in whatever cartel dominated country they reside in, and they just have to live their lives hoping a stray bullet doesn't catch them on the way to the grocery store?

Point is, are we really going to sit here and act like our legal immigration system isn't overwhelmed with applications? Look at the state of the rest of the world. Why doesn't Trump fix that instead of building a wall?

[CRedskinsRule]

Originally Posted by mooby

I think the reason so many don't wait to immigrate legally is because it is an already complicated and overwhelming process that often takes a long time. Imagine living in one of those border cities in Mexico where the death toll is insane thanks to the constant fighting, hell I'm sure there are families that have already seen too much death on a regular basis. Should they have to wait a year or two or however long it takes to process the application and go through the vetting? On top of that they might have already tried and gotten turned down. Then what? I guess they are just stuck living in whatever cartel dominated country they reside in, and they just have to live their lives hoping a stray bullet doesn't catch them on the way to the grocery store?

Point is, are we really going to sit here and act like our legal immigration system isn't overwhelmed with applications? Look at the state of the rest of the world. Why doesn't Trump fix that instead of building a wall?

Several points.
1) seriously - why doesn't Trump fix the state of the rest of the world?

2) I agree our legal immigration ought to be simplified and expanded - in other words the Statue of Liberty quote ought to be exemplified by our immigration policies, not by immigrants breaking our laws to get into the country.

3) Even with a liberalized immigration policy you can't offer enough legal immigration to solve the problem by itself.

4) Walls work but it's not the end all be all solution. The fact of the matter is that even in this day and age, walls/fences/security structures work.

We don't build prisons without walls and fences because the bad guys will just find another way.

Most people put a fence around the property line, not because it's an end all solution, but because you define the line.

You say people will find other ways, and while that's true, you still block off vast amounts of avenues simply with a wall that has basic security enhancements - motion sensor, ground radar, and cameras.

bottomline, no one solution is going to solve the problems at our southern border, but an effective wall, better use of technology, and an appropriate immigration policy would go a long way to reducing the issue.

[CRedskinsRule]

One other point on immigration, from a Telegraph article,

In 2015, the US had 46million legal immigrants (11million illegal - estimated)
The next closest countries were Germany and Russia which had about 12million each.
Canada has 7.8 million.

We have nearly as many undocumented/illegal immigrants as the next closest countries have legal. I can't understand for the life of me, why trying to protect the borders with a physical demarcation is in anyway a bad thing. The closest I get to understanding is the cost argument, but how many people don't pay the cost to put up a fence. Out of all the tasks assigned to our government that they want to pay for, border security seems to me like it fits at the top of the constitutional list of Federal obligations. ( and yes I'd be ok with delaying a few nuclear subs/f-35 fighter jets to help defray the initial cost, and then use tariffs/fees and other methods to recoup the total expenses)

[Chico23231]

Originally Posted by mooby

I think the reason so many don't wait to immigrate legally is because it is an already complicated and overwhelming process that often takes a long time. Imagine living in one of those border cities in Mexico where the death toll is insane thanks to the constant fighting, hell I'm sure there are families that have already seen too much death on a regular basis. Should they have to wait a year or two or however long it takes to process the application and go through the vetting? On top of that they might have already tried and gotten turned down. Then what? I guess they are just stuck living in whatever cartel dominated country they reside in, and they just have to live their lives hoping a stray bullet doesn't catch them on the way to the grocery store?

Point is, are we really going to sit here and act like our legal immigration system isn't overwhelmed with applications? Look at the state of the rest of the world. Why doesn't Trump fix that instead of building a wall?

Mooby mooby mooby....our you saying our extremely generous immigration policy where we welcome so many per year is the problem? Ive never heard any complaints and really non from the Mexican Gov't..???

The main reason folks are crossing illegally is Cartel violence?

Mooby, buddy.....I gotta give you the "come on man!" for this post.

If there is any restrictions directly from Mexico or problems, its caused by the Mexican Government and there own problem with illegal immigration. Remember, a lot of folks are illegally crossing over from central and south America into Mexico to then travel to the US border only to be trafficked into the US illegally or crossing over themselves. If its any delay its trying to vet IDs, nationalities, etc.

Our legal immigration policy is fine...I don't think there is an issue. Sorry, but 9/11 changed a lot of things, but we still do a tremendous job in accepting a lot of people into this country...which IM 110% for.

[mooby]

Originally Posted by Chico23231

Mooby mooby mooby....our you saying our extremely generous immigration policy where we welcome so many per year is the problem? Ive never heard any complaints and really non from the Mexican Gov't..???

The main reason folks are crossing illegally is Cartel violence?

Mooby, buddy.....I gotta give you the "come on man!" for this post.

If there is any restrictions directly from Mexico or problems, its caused by the Mexican Government and there own problem with illegal immigration. Remember, a lot of folks are illegally crossing over from central and south America into Mexico to then travel to the US border only to be trafficked into the US illegally or crossing over themselves. If its any delay its trying to vet IDs, nationalities, etc.

Our legal immigration policy is fine...I don't think there is an issue. Sorry, but 9/11 changed a lot of things, but we still do a tremendous job in accepting a lot of people into this country...which IM 110% for.

I'm not gonna debate the numbers of legal immigrants we let in this country. I am saying the branch of gov't responsible for vetting applicants probably has so many applicants on their hands that people will be stuck waiting for years to get in. Put yourself in their hands. If you had to go the legal route and wait for who-knows how long and not even know for sure whether you will get in or not, or alternatively you could save up as much money as possible and catch a ride to the border, to potentially save your kids from growing up in whatever 3rd world country you live in, you wouldn't?

The worst that happens is you will get deported if you get caught, barring you having a criminal record of course. People's lives are at stake. The drug war in Mexico has claimed huge amounts of lives, some of which are certainly innocent people caught in the crossfire. South American countries have no jobs, no hope, rampant corruption, a weak economy, violence from various factions, and you think people should just suck it up and play the legal waiting game?

I get it Chico, you got your own problems and your own shit to deal with, who fucking cares about their problems until they come to your country and make it your problem? That's the burden of being the main country on Earth where everyone who doesn't live here thinks is the solution to their problems.

[Chico23231]

Originally Posted by mooby

I'm not gonna debate the numbers of legal immigrants we let in this country. I am saying the branch of gov't responsible for vetting applicants probably has so many applicants on their hands that people will be stuck waiting for years to get in. Put yourself in their hands. If you had to go the legal route and wait for who-knows how long and not even know for sure whether you will get in or not, or alternatively you could save up as much money as possible and catch a ride to the border, to potentially save your kids from growing up in whatever 3rd world country you live in, you wouldn't?

The worst that happens is you will get deported if you get caught, barring you having a criminal record of course. People's lives are at stake. The drug war in Mexico has claimed huge amounts of lives, some of which are certainly innocent people caught in the crossfire. South American countries have no jobs, no hope, rampant corruption, a weak economy, violence from various factions, and you think people should just suck it up and play the legal waiting game?

I get it Chico, you got your own problems and your own shit to deal with, who fucking cares about their problems until they come to your country and make it your problem? That's the burden of being the main country on Earth where everyone who doesn't live here thinks is the solution to their problems.

Mooby, lets just demand people who really want to be here do the right things to get legal status to be here. Is that too much to ask? Do you think a lot of these illegals give a flying fuck really about this country? Its a paycheck to them.

What about the tax money we spend to provide services to illegals? What about all the money made here to support the Mexican economy back home?

[mooby]

Originally Posted by Chico23231

Mooby, lets just demand people who really want to be here do the right things to get legal status to be here. Is that too much to ask? Do you think a lot of these illegals give a flying fuck really about this country? Its a paycheck to them.

What about the tax money we spend to provide services to illegals? What about all the money made here to support the Mexican economy back home?

I understand that some portion (the percentage is up for debate) of my tax dollars is going to supporting services that illegal immigrants use. Which sucks. But part of my tax dollars are also wasted by government abuse. I'd say let's make a big deal out of that, but I already know the answer is "well that's what Trump means by drain the swamp." If draining the swamp means all of his advisers are coming from the private sector they already got rich off of, so be it. If draining the swamp means deregulating every industry they can think of "so the economy will get a boost" whatever. I'm not banking on getting any improvement out of it anyways.

Back to the original point at hand, you are lying to yourself if you think families and people come to America from 3rd world countries thinking "who cares about this place, it's just a paycheck." It's not just a paycheck. It's a better life. It's knowing your kids can play in the street without being exposed to violence. It's still a hard life, but it's almost certainly better then the one they left behind. It's just a goddamn shame you lump them in with the illegal immigrants that come here solely on behalf of whatever gang/cartel they represent, and are basically looking for easy money selling drugs/human trafficking/etc. Those are the ones we should be focusing on getting rid of, not the hard working families trying to raise their kids on a decent paycheck. It's not as black and white as you want to make it out.

And don't even start on terrorist Muslims getting in, lord knows more mass murder incidents have happened in America since 9/11 by the hand of insane white people. Why doesn't he ban Saudi Arabia immigrants from coming here, since 19 of those fuckers were responsible for 9/11? What about Egyptian immigrants? What's the excuse for them?

I get it, you want immigrants to come here legally and pay taxes like the rest of us. I would fucking love it if that happened too. But here's my final question. If Trump truly makes America great again, what do you think is going to happen? Right now the idea that America is the greatest country on Earth is just an illusion, and they're still coming in. Imagine if we truly were the greatest country on Earth again, people from every 3rd world country out there would be pouring in by the boatload. We'd make the immigrant situation in Europe look like nothing in comparison.

[Chico23231]

Originally Posted by mooby

I understand that some portion (the percentage is up for debate) of my tax dollars is going to supporting services that illegal immigrants use. Which sucks. But part of my tax dollars are also wasted by government abuse. I'd say let's make a big deal out of that, but I already know the answer is "well that's what Trump means by drain the swamp." If draining the swamp means all of his advisers are coming from the private sector they already got rich off of, so be it. If draining the swamp means deregulating every industry they can think of "so the economy will get a boost" whatever. I'm not banking on getting any improvement out of it anyways.

Back to the original point at hand, you are lying to yourself if you think families and people come to America from 3rd world countries thinking "who cares about this place, it's just a paycheck." It's not just a paycheck. It's a better life. It's knowing your kids can play in the street without being exposed to violence. It's still a hard life, but it's almost certainly better then the one they left behind. It's just a goddamn shame you lump them in with the illegal immigrants that come here solely on behalf of whatever gang/cartel they represent, and are basically looking for easy money selling drugs/human trafficking/etc. Those are the ones we should be focusing on getting rid of, not the hard working families trying to raise their kids on a decent paycheck. It's not as black and white as you want to make it out.

And don't even start on terrorist Muslims getting in, lord knows more mass murder incidents have happened in America since 9/11 by the hand of insane white people. Why doesn't he ban Saudi Arabia immigrants from coming here, since 19 of those fuckers were responsible for 9/11? What about Egyptian immigrants? What's the excuse for them?

I get it, you want immigrants to come here legally and pay taxes like the rest of us. I would fucking love it if that happened too. But here's my final question. If Trump truly makes America great again, what do you think is going to happen? Right now the idea that America is the greatest country on Earth is just an illusion, and they're still coming in. Imagine if we truly were the greatest country on Earth again, people from every 3rd world country out there would be pouring in by the boatload. We'd make the immigrant situation in Europe look like nothing in comparison.

we will just disagree.

And when you mention tax money wasted, of course it is. Look at the growth of government...We def need less government at every level...Federal, State, and local.